Can't reliably reach doubles valves....Help!

[Scott L]

I'm surpised nobody's mentioned Cameron Martz's wonderful book "Fitness for Divers" yet ...

This article provides some particularly helpful exercises ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I agree. I have been reading it the past two nights. Wonderful book on the subject...

 

[Anti-Hero]

Most of the issues with valve shutdowns that I've seen have been either harness adjustment [too lose], technique, or a combination of both. Raising the tanks in the bands is a minimal fix with a lot of trade offs when it comes to trim.

If I just try to reach straight back, I can't reach my valves. If I place my hand on my cheek and run it back along my head, I can reach them easily.

 

[Anti-Hero]

Oh yeah, and don't look down when trying to reach your valves, it actually moves them further away.

 

[Herk_Man]

Having no experience in this I'm not really qualified to comment, but the post urging a valve down configuration really makes the most sense to me. Is there a reason this would not work? It would certainly seem to be easier than fashioning your own valve extension or going through painful stretching exercises that may further damage the shoulder.

 

[AndyNZ]

Having no experience in this I'm not really qualified to comment, but the post urging a valve down configuration really makes the most sense to me. Is there a reason this would not work?

It depends on how you define "work". There are a couple of issues, one is that it is difficult to reach the isolator (as Dale asked), this is normally dealt with by having a "slob knob", which is a flexible extension of a valve handle about 3' long. You can run the slob knob up the tanks to a position where it is accessible. People will argue about slob knobs being an additional point of failure, to which there is some truth, but my personal biggest concern about them is knowing where someone has stowed the other end. I know where an isolator is on a manifold, but in the even of assisting someone else having to look for their slob knob is a pain.

The second issue with inverting tanks, again my opinion, is that it becomes problematic in terms of hose routing and hose lengths. To get a hose configuration that works for me would involve custom length hoses - which increases the size of your spares kit and effects interchangeability with the rest of your team.

It can work, but I think it's not the best solution for most people. Sidemounting, as Trace pointed out, is probably a better solution for someone who really can't reach the valves. Sidemount has the advantage that you can see what is going on. Back mounted you have to rely on touch and sound to identify failures - which is relatively easy to do with standard twins, but inverted is more difficult because the sound of a failure is further away from your ears and you can't quite reach all the points you want to be able to check to determine what has actually gone wrong.

 

[elan]

Having no experience in this I'm not really qualified to comment, but the post urging a valve down configuration really makes the most sense to me. Is there a reason this would not work? It would certainly seem to be easier than fashioning your own valve extension or going through painful stretching exercises that may further damage the shoulder.

My guess it is a trade off, if the person has a medical condition not allowing him/her to reach the valves in the tanks in the up straight position then it can work.

But for those who do not have those conditions reaching the valves is not a big deal if it's done properly. So far I have found that the whole fuss about the valves in most cases (for people with no med conditions) is just due to the lack of the appropriate training and poor gear configuration including dry suit fit. With the valves next to you head you can also hear in some cases where the air is coming from.

 

[TSandM]

One of the biggest issues with mounting the tanks valve down is that it puts the valves where they are most likely to suffer impacts when tanks are moved around.

To the OP: Have you tried reaching your valves in just a swimsuit in a pool? If you can do this, it's your exposure protection that's causing your problem, and this is EXTREMELY common. I fought to the point of tears to reach my valves in the first two suits I had, and then I got my Fusion, and it became trivial.

Trim is also important -- a lot of us rear head-up as a natural concomitant to forcing the arm back, which causes the tanks to fall down your back and be harder to reach. Tipping very slightly head DOWN (I think about trying to bump the tanks up my back with my butt) helped me a great deal.

Do you have somebody who is good at this who can go diving with you and watch, or better yet, video? This can be absolutely fantastic for sorting out the problem. Oh, and BTW, I have had an ORIF of the collarbone on my right side and a frozen shoulder as a result, and I still have some limited range of motion in that shoulder, and I can reach my valves just fine.

 

[JonKranhouse]

Inverted doubles seem to be fairly popular in the UK.

(because there are lots of commercial divers who are also recreational divers).

it puts the valves where they are most likely to suffer impacts when tanks are moved around.

Agreed - I've seen custom guards that protect valves. Maybe Tobin could apply his wizardry? Many (most?) rebreathers are valves-down. I used to have a set of Divators (valves-down), but getting 4,500 psi fills became too inconvenient.

I agree with ALL the prior posts about stretching and fitness. But I don't like depending on both my body and all my gear working anywhere close to 100% to ensure safety. I like BIG FAT margins of safety that accommodate sloppy real-world variables. Mix in the unpredictable conditions of San Miguel/Santa Barbara/San Nic/San Clemente islands + possible gear failures + possible entanglement with monofilament high-test line. Then what? Fatter margins means not running out of options.

The commercial aviation industry figured this out decades ago. Without passengers, flight crews are allowed to ferry airliners vast distances to get to a repair facility with MANY systems in "failure" mode. A cadre of underwriter-approved "gear-head" pilots are hired for these ferry flights, for their expertise in managing and not aggravating problems en-route. Point of the story? Why should the recreational dive industry promulgate thin safety margins for a risky activity? In my opinion the "right" dry suit or underwear shouldn't be how you close a safety gap that's bound to catch others who are not 100% vigilant. The status quo only benefits those concerned with maximizing profits ("diving is as safe as bowling") by cutting costs and capping liability exposure with lowest common denominator standards. That said, warm-water diving doubles in 3 mm with healthy shoulders? Absolutely go valves up.

Side mounts make sense in some scenarios, but not for SoCal kelp divers who need unencumbered arm movement for spearfishing or manipulating camera housings / strobes - all while dealing with surge.

Unquestionably, valves-down is somewhat less convenient above-water for dive professionals who provide services to dive consumers. If moving tanks above water becomes a bit more burdensome, or a boat's tank-rack / seats need minor carpentry, isn't that a small tradeoff vs. making diving safer?

AndyNZ's comments are well reasoned, and illuminates how it takes the momentum of multiple people deciding, separately, that the pain of the status quo is worse than the pain of navigating the change - then lots of people can share their spare parts and know how hoses are routed.

 

[Chief Dave L]

Any idea on where to get the book? (Cameron Martz's wonderful book "Fitness for Divers") Amazon says they don't have it and can't get it.

Dave

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Any idea on where to get the book? (Cameron Martz's wonderful book "Fitness for Divers") Amazon says they don't have it and can't get it.

Dave

Exercises, Stretches, and Nutrition for SCUBA Diving

... Bob (Grateful Diver)