Cave and Wreck diving

[certified in 1976]

Done a fair amount of wreck diving but have absolutely zero interest in diving in caves. Most wreck penetration dives I've done have near by escape routes. Not the usually the same for caves.

 

[diver42]

I don't think that's the generally recognized definition of a cavern. It's been many years since I was last in the Ballroom at Ginnie ... but I don't recall it as being someplace I'd want to be without a light. Same goes for Dos Ojos, Gran Cenote, Pet Cemetary or Car Wash in Mexico ... and those are probably the most popular cavern dives available down there.

The "cavern" at Dos Ojos becomes a cave in the afternoon.

 

[Kevrumbo]

I am pretty interested in wreck diving in the future, the idea of going through sunken history is totally awesome to me! However I was thinking about cave diving and it really doesn't interest me, maybe I am just ignorant to what it has to offer. Are there cooler things in caves over wrecks? Why are some divers drawn to caves and don't do wrecks (or even vice versa)?

A historically significant wreck worth diving on is one that tells an epic story.
Battle of Sunda Strait - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The 'Nightmare' Night USS Houston Went Down - USNI News
Captain Albert Rooks USS Houston
Captain Hector Waller HMAS Perth

The allure and fun of wreck diving is not just merely researching the history for academic sake, but actually diving down yourself and vicariously reliving the history as you would imagine how it might've actually happened. . . the most meaningful and sobering are the WWII Wrecks sunk-in-action, Allied or Imperial Japanese, and seeing evidence of the suffering, sacrifice, and incredible damage inflicted on both Ship & Crew.

 

[Caveeagle]

That sounds like a cave to me. Especially if there's rain or even sudden clouds.

Here is a profile of Pardise. I would add that the entrance to the "cave" below 100' is actually a restriction. I am pretty sure you could not get two divers through there at the same time.



As far as wrecks vs caves, I have always been fascinated by historical wrecks. I have just found myself diving near caves and with friends what were more cave-centric.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Truk Lagoon is some of the more fascinating and easier to visit Pacific Theater WWII History, and the solemn experience of exploring the scene of an epic air raid and rout by the US Navy over 70 years ago; Scuba diving on the ships that were sunk in action and imagining again how it all literally "went down"; exploring the cargo holds & superstructures full of ordnance, tanks, fighter planes, with AA guns & cannons still pointing skyward; massive torpedo holes in hulls, terrific battle damage of ships blown in half by secondary aviation fuel or ammunition explosions; the crew quarters and the Engine Room spaces where you see gas masks & human remains right beside each other -of heroic but doomed Japanese Seamen under orders to stay at crew stations to the very end. . .

I've visited Pearl Harbor and the Arizona Memorial where the war all began for America and visited the USS Missouri where WWII ended as well, moored inline on Battleship Row appropriately near and guarding the shattered hull & tomb of USS Arizona; Dove at Bikini Atoll on the HIJMS Nagato -the first Battleship designed with 16" guns (capsized but still there mounted intact) the Flagship where Admiral Yamamoto planned & gave the order to execute the Pearl Harbor Raid; Traveled eight thousand miles to Sri Lanka and visited the only dive-able British WWII Aircraft Carrier sunk in action -HMS Hermes- sunk by the same Japanese Fleet that attacked Pearl Harbor; and finally dove the 500' long Oiler IJN Shinkoku Maru befittingly sunk in revenge during the Truk Lagoon Raid --a tanker that sortied with that same Japanese Fleet, eight thousand miles from Pearl Harbor to Ceylon (Sri Lanka), as well as supporting the naval attack at the Battle of Midway.

Now that's a unique common thread and brief overview of a wreck diver's "Bucket List & Historical Odyssey", exploring & reliving WWII Indo-Pacific History, and appreciating how the United States came to be the greatest maritime world power it is today. . . (That and also seeing what the Atomic Bombs of the Operation Crossroads Test did to the warships at Bikini Atoll --that black shadow at the lower right end in the water column blast is the USS Arkansas, "standing vertical on its bow". . .).

 

[boulderjohn]

Hi John,

I don't know of any agency that doesn't require daylight. The sun is the primary source of light in a cavern dive.

NSS-CDS


TDI


IANTD


NAUI


And I think the NACD standards mentioned something about Pizza, but let me quote those too.

I guess it is a matter of defining the word "primary," a word that is not found in a single one of the definitions you cited. If I am in a cavern and can see the light from the entrance, it can still be pretty dark, and I would say that the primary source of light for me is in my hand.

 

[Caveeagle]

So, regardless of whether you consider sunlight your Primary, or Tertiary source of light, Does anyone think its safe for an OW/AOW diver to be down near 100' deep in this cavern? I hate to sound like I am slamming Paradise (in particular)... There are certainly dark corners to Ginnie and Blue Grotto as well. In comparison, Blue Hole (Jug) springs limits diving to Certified Cavern/Cave divers (state park).

As far as wrecks vs caves, I have always been fascinated by historical wrecks. I have just found myself diving near caves and with friends what were more cave-centric.

 

[Doby45]

So, regardless of whether you consider sunlight your Primary, or Tertiary source of light, Does anyone think its safe for an OW/AOW diver to be down near 100' deep in this cavern? I hate to sound like I am slamming Paradise (in particular)... There are certainly dark corners to Ginnie and Blue Grotto as well. In comparison, Blue Hole (Jug) springs limits diving to Certified Cavern/Cave divers (state park).

Looks no different than Blue Grotto to me. I have been to 100' there and I am not yet Cavern. I did have a primary and two back up lights though..

 

[kensuf]

Sigh.. I don't have digital copies of all of the student workbooks that I own with me, but here's what I can quote you. The NSS-CDS cavern diver manual spells it out pretty clearly though.

Your primary source of light during a cavern dive is the sun. It is important that you stay within sight of the direct sunlight coming from the entrance at all times during the dive. If you move beyond the cavern zone of direct sunlight to where you can only see "ambient" surface light reflected against the cavern walls, floor or ceiling, or reflected against suspended particles in the water, you have entered the transition area to the portion of the cave where no surface light at all is visible. At any point past the cavern zone of direct sunlight you are beyond the level of cavern-diver training that this book addresses.

Cavern is portion of cave where natural light is available. Caverns do not exist at night.

Cavern diving limitations:

Diving in the “Daylight” zone only. (There are no night cavern dives)

 

[boulderjohn]

Sigh.. I don't have digital copies of all of the student workbooks that I own with me, but here's what I can quote you. The NSS-CDS cavern diver manual spells it out pretty clearly though.

Ken, you are arguing over semantics.

I know the damn rules, and you can keep quoting the rules I know well over and over and over and over again, and it will not change the fact that in my original statement, I was defining the word "primary" by the way it is normally used in the English language, which is my mother tongue and the subject I taught for many years. If I am in a cavern that has access to daylight but is still dark enough that I need a good flashlight to see what I am doing well, then by that normal English definition, the primary light I am using is my flashlight. If the word "primary" is being used instead by agencies in ways other than its normal definition, then my use of it would be incorrect.

An analogy would be the word "mastery" as is used by modern scuba instruction. Many people regularly take issue with the use of the word to describe student learning because they are using the common definition of the term found in dictionaries, not the definition used in the context of educational theory. PADI uses the term in the way it is used in educational theory, and it defines the term specifically in its manual. Therefore, when discussing the term, the proper thing is to use the term as it is defined by the agency and not another definition derived from another context.

In my original reply, I used the definition commonly found in dictionaries, and it cave diving agencies have defined the term differently, I was unaware of that and will gladly be corrected.