Chandelier Cave - safe for AOW diver?

[WimW]

Hi all,

just wanted to verify with the people who have dived Chandelier Cave in Palau: is it safe without Cave training? It seems like it has so many air pockets it is pretty close to open water, but in light of the recent thread about the Ginnie Springs incident, I just wanted to make sure...

Wim

 

[DevonDiver]

Not sure what part of this is unclear.... you signed it at the end of both of your entry-level PADI courses, yes?

This is a statement in which you are informed of the established safe diving practices for skin and scuba diving. These practices have been compiled for your review and acknowledgement and are intended to increase your comfort and safety in diving. Your signature on this statement is required as proof that you are aware of these safe diving practices...

I, __________________________________________________, understand that as a diver I should...

2. Be familiar with my dive sites. If not, obtain a formal diving orientation from a knowledgeable, local source. If diving conditions are worse than those in which I am experienced, postpone diving or select an alternate site with better conditions. Engage only in diving activities consistent with my training and experience. Do not engage in cave or technical diving unless specifically trained to do so.

So... there's your answer.... right there.

At the least, it sounds like a Cavern Dive. Again, that's still an overhead environment - for which you have received zero training or knowledge for safe diving practice or mitigation of risks.

The basic rules and recommendations of diving exist for your own safety. I fail to comprehend the difficulty in comprehending those concepts... or maybe, the ease with which those basic safety principles are 'negotiated' into irrelevance. Sadly, reality never makes them irrelevant....

Why not invest some effort into taking a cavern courses - and then you'll be able to perform your own risk assessment on the dive in question, rather than abdicating that responsibility to strangers on the internet, or local dive 'pros' of unknown capability?

 

[miketsp]

Given the number of people that snorkel this "cave" and post pictures on the Internet, I'm not exactly sure it would classify as a "cave". There are a lot of comments about removing masks and snorkels in the chambers. YouTube has a lot of videos of divers chatting on the surface in the chambers.

The sites that rate dive locations generally suggest it's for "intermediate" divers.
Example:
Scuba Dive Site: Chandelier Cave, South Palau Reef, Palau | Skaphandrus.com

This site is located near Koror and consists in a cave with 130 meters. On the left of the entrance you can see 3 depth charges of World War II. Chandelier Cave is a cave system, composed of five separate chambers. Each chamber is connected to the other and can all be explored. It is recommended for divers with intermediate level, and the lantern is essential.​

However access to the 5th chamber sounds like it's not for everyone:

Scuba Diving Palau with Fish 'n Fins - Dive Sites

​

Level of Diving Experience: Intermediate.

In the first chamber, as you shine your light above, you can see the marvelous colors and shapes that nature has provided. From here you can work your way on into the other 4 chambers. ​

If you want to enter the 5th chamber you will have to remove your dive gear. Be forewarned, you will have to crawl and slide through some very tight places lined with slippery black mud, but the reward will be worth the trip​

.

​

Chandelier Cave - Mergulhar em Palau, Republic of Palau - Wannadive.net - Atlas mundial de sites de mergulho
rates the cave as "for all levels of diver" and the Danger section is blank.

Neco Marine - Diving Palau
Chandelier Cave is a unique opportunity for divers of all levels to experience diving in an overhead environment.

 

[DevonDiver]

Neco Marine - Diving Palau
Chandelier Cave is a unique opportunity for divers of all levels to experience diving in an overhead environment.

I feel responsibility and professionalism just dripping off their tongues...

They list themselves as a PADI 5*IDC... and yet their website contains several statements (including the one above) that directly contradicts the recommendations and safety guidelines issued by PADI.

They offer Cavern Diver courses though... so they should be clear about the 'all levels' issues with overhead environments.

 

[pwl]

I've visited chandelier cave on both my trips to palau

- it's a small, easily-navigated system with wide chambers & swim spaces

- all of the main chambers have large air spaces above the waterline. in this respect it is not a real cavern "overhead" environment - more like a series of swim-throughs

- the cave is porous & also has several chimneys in various places: air is replenished from the outside & there is no real danger of stale air in the air spaces visited by most tourists

- the challenging factors are:
+ it's dark, so you need to hold onto your light
+ the entry/exit is not visible at all times, so you need to stick with your guide
+ exiting the cave you can experience a slight, but sudden, pressure increase (or at least, i did)


I'd have no qualms about taking an adventure diver on this dive as part of a "cave diving experience" tour - the experience being that's it's dark. It's really no more dangerous than a night dive.

Investing in a cavern diving course to swim through chandelier cave would be like using a steam hammer to crack a walnut.

 

[DevonDiver]

- the challenging factors are:
+ it's dark, so you need to hold onto your light thus beyond the scope/recommendations of cavern training.
+ the entry/exit is not visible at all times, so you need to stick with your guide thus beyond the scope/recommendations of cavern training
+ exiting the cave you can experience a slight, but sudden, pressure increase (or at least, i did)


I'd have no qualms about taking an adventure diver on this dive as part of a "cave diving experience" tour - the experience being that's it's dark. It's really no more dangerous than a night dive.

Investing in a cavern diving course to swim through chandelier cave would be like using a steam hammer to crack a walnut.

I'm finding it hard to picture the cave, based on the descriptions. Is it an overhead or not? i.e. Can the diver resort to immediate ascent to the surface at any dive during the dive, should they encounter a problem? Is it a cavern dive or not? i.e. is there risk of silting/loss of illumination leading to the diver being delayed/prevented from egressing (not surfacing) from the water when required?

I mentioned earlier about 'negotiating safety recommendations'... it's easy to disregard x, y or z... to negotiate with yourself internally and erroneously justify a course of action because it is what you want to do (or what a dive center wants you to do $$$).

How about this? What is the worst case scenario foreseeable on the dive? How does that equate to training provided at x, y or x levels?

 

[WimW]

I'm finding it hard to picture the cave, based on the descriptions. Is it an overhead or not? i.e. Can the diver resort to immediate ascent to the surface at any dive during the dive, should they encounter a problem? Is it a cavern dive or not? i.e. is there risk of silting/loss of illumination leading to the diver being delayed/prevented from egressing (not surfacing) from the water when required?

I mentioned earlier about 'negotiating safety recommendations'... it's easy to disregard x, y or z... to negotiate with yourself internally and erroneously justify a course of action because it is what you want to do (or what a dive center wants you to do $$$).

How about this? What is the worst case scenario foreseeable on the dive? How does that equate to training provided at x, y or x levels?

DD and pwl, thanks for your feedback. It's interesting to read the views of an experienced cave diver and of someone else who has actually been there. Of course, it would be even better to have the opinion of a cave diver who has been there...

I like the 'worst case scenario' question... From what I understand, it may be something like:

- Losing orientation, buddy and the rest of the group e.g. because of silt-out
- Dive light failure
- Some emergency that can not be solved under water with my level of training / available gear, causing me to CESA (since no more buddy available), or being unable to find the exit and having to come up OOA
- Thus in both cases being 'stuck' in the chamber I'm in since exiting would require working dive gear and air (or would this not be the case and would a freediving exit be possible?)

I personally don't see this as a very dangerous situation: it's a question of waiting for someone to come and get me on their octo - assuming the swim-throughs are sufficiently large to pass side-by-side. Otherwise I would have to wait for a cave diver with a long hose You could even say this is less risky then a high-current OW environment where you drift away from the boat - at least here they know where to come and get you, right?

I guess a medical problem would be more annoying than in OW because evacuation is harder - but any level of training would not change that.

 

[DevonDiver]

I personally don't see this as a very dangerous situation: it's a question of waiting for someone to come and get me on their octo

In that case, why bother with any scuba training in the first place?

I suppose it all depends on whether you are willing to entrust responsibility for your life to another (unknown) diver, or whether you prefer to retain the responsibility in your own hands.

There's some good threads on that subject on Scubaboard, search; 'Trust Me Dives' or 'Whose Responsibility' or 'Self-Reliance'.

For what it's worth, I am not a cave diver. I am a technical diver...and a technical wreck diver...with several thousand dives in those environments, often in very tight spaces, zero viz, current and always in complete blackness. A very similar skill-set to cave diving granted, but I don't do caves because I'm not trained for that environment. One thing experience teaches you is not to 'negotiate' with yourself in order to make compromises that are a short-cut to proper training and safety preparedness.

 

[mathauck0814]

Folks, we are watching rationalization at work!

For what it's worth, even intro to cave divers aren't allowed to do the kind of restrictions that the "chamber 5" description (above) notes.

The number of "trust me" dives going on is sort of amazing.

To the OP, it sounds like you came here to get permission. You got something else and now you're on your way to doing it anyway.

I hope you don't end up a statistic. Odds are you won't, but wouldn't it be nice if that were an educated decision rather than a WAG?

 

[WimW]

Folks, we are watching rationalization at work!

For what it's worth, even intro to cave divers aren't allowed to do the kind of restrictions that the "chamber 5" description (above) notes.

The number of "trust me" dives going on is sort of amazing.

To the OP, it sounds like you came here to get permission. You got something else and now you're on your way to doing it anyway.

I hope you don't end up a statistic. Odds are you won't, but wouldn't it be nice if that were an educated decision rather than a WAG?

I did not come here for permission, I make my own decisions. I wanted to get information to help me make that decision. Previous posters gave me information, and I'm grateful for that. Unfortunately, there's not much infomation in your post