Concerns raised about agency response to student fatality

[cerich]

Yet is is, and it's a good lesson for those wanting to dive on medications. .

umm...the pharmacological report covered way more than "medications"...just saying

 

[Jack Hammer]

And why would a QA board need to be secret?

So they can theoretically make an unbiased decision free of concerns or repercussions. They may also be privy to confidential information. No one can pressure them for inside info if they dont know who they are.... that's the simplified theory.

 

[The Chairman]

If these members produce a 'verdict' that's strongly at odds with the views of their local community peers, shop owners, etc..., can that be a problem?

I think the better question is: should it be a problem? It's apparent that IANTD wants to insulate their organization from any and all criticisms. How's that working for them? They're not alone in this, but it's my humble opinion that they're doing it wrong. I don't appear to be alone here. Remember when PADI sued Walter Wilt (2002???) for posting a comparison of the various agencies? It was naked intimidation, much like IANTD is doing and it back fired. How about the 10 million dollar lawsuit against Scuba Board. It was just another ill fated attempt to control the dialog on Social Media that back fired as well. This is the information age. Trying to operate a business like the internet doesn't exist is not just short sighted: it's ludicrous. What you don't know is going to keep hurting you over and over. A few agencies have made some inroads but three, including IANTD, seem to have stuck their fingers in their ears and start screaming "LALALALALA!" every time people try to get them to evolve. You may not like living in a fish bowl, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

 

[kensuf]

Nobody threatens QA members. On contrary the protesting instructors are told: "shut up or else"

According to the public rebuttal, members of the original QA board and HQ were given threats that can be summarized as "I'll destroy you." Indeed, the attacks against IANTD in public appear to be designed to do just that.

I have heard of at least 3 QA boards that have expelled instructors from the ranks of IANTD in the past year, so the idea that they would circle the wagons to protect an instructor seems unlikely to me. I tend to believe the QA process was followed according to IANTD procedures.

IANTD is in an unenviable catch-22, if they keep quiet they will appear to be covering something up. If they get involved in a public mud-slinging contest, it'll likely blow up in their face.

 

[Schwob]

Call me simplistic, but:
So a student in a beginner cave diving class manages to wedge himself into a restriction such that he could not free himself (definitely the students fault, but how snd why did it come to this) and no other present (if anyone really knows) cold free him either. Unless the protocols spell out that students are supposed to dive in the cave alone or that instructors shall not challenge them to stop doing that before they get themselves hopelessly wedged, I don't even remotely see how protocol was nor violated. My guess is most have trouble seeing that. So, maybe that is voyeuristic, but I sure would like to see / hear how the progression of events is being explained by IANTD such that it turns out to be the students sole fault.
....
So, If you were an author of fiction, versed in such things, how would you construct the chain of events such that this could occur and nothing was violated?
....
That pour soul. I can only imagine his horror. May he rest in peace.

 

[kelemvor]

I have read on another forum that IANTD has issued a public response explaining why it decided to take disciplinary measures against some of its instructors.

IANTD's response

Thread on CDF

IANTD states that it has high standards for investigating fatalities during training, conducted by very qualified professionals. It claims that the identity of the investigatory commission is normally kept secret to avoid external pressure, and that the first commission formed relating to this particular incident had to be disbanded because Krzysztof Starnawsk exposed their identities. It goes on accusing Krzysztof Starnawsk of trying to force the QA board of coming to the same conclusions as he.

In my opinion, that statement would have been much more satisfactory if it had disclosed the complete findings of the QA board that examined the incident, explaining how the fatality happened despite the instructors involved acting diligently and in accordance to standards, as seems to be the official conclusion from IANTD.

The response seems to be centered around whatever some iantd member did and not the investigation its-self. There's no details in the document about the accident, and lots of details about some kerfuffle with their (now former) member. It's simply a political dodge; they did make a statement but it was not a statement about the investigation's findings.

 

[bamafan]

Call me simplistic, but:
So a student in a beginner cave diving class manages to wedge himself into a restriction such that he could not free himself (definitely the students fault, but how snd why did it comevto this) and no other present (if any, eho really knows) cold free him either. Unless the protocols spell out that students are suppose to dive in the cave alone or that instructors shall not challenge to stop doing that before they get themselves hopelessly wedged, I don't even remotely see how protocol was nor violated. My guess is most have trouble sing that. So, maybe that is voyeuristic, but I sure would like to see / hear how the progression of events is being explained by IANTD such that it turns out to be the students sole fault.
....
So, If you were an author of fiction versed in such things, how would you construct the chain of events such that this could occur and nothing was violated?
....
That pour soul. I can only imagine his horror. May he rest in peace.

I am not an instructor but from what I know the safety of the student should be put first. So if the facts are what I have heard that there was an IT and a instructor candidate teaching the class. Apparently they did not run a continous guideline from ow to the main line in the cave and one of them was on the surface and the other one was in the cave and the students were to swim solo from the surface to the instructor in the cave. Not having a continous guideline the student got lost and swam into a crack where he became wedged and died. The instructors definitely didn't keep control of the student as they should have and violating the continuous guideline rule is just brain dead.

There was a situation in Jackson Blue several years ago when a out of town instructor who didn't have a lot of familiarity with Jackson Blue took 2 students down a sidemount passage instead of the Horseshoe Circuit as planned. Apparently the students made it through but the instructor couldn't and he left the students and went for help. The students made it to the end of that line and tied on jump spools and trying to figure out what to do when the help arrived and took them out of the cave. I believe this instructors teaching status was revoked and in this incident no one died or was even injured. In the case being discussed here the negligence on the part of the IT and instructor candidate seem much worse. The instructor candidate also posted on Facebook about how he passed and was now an instructor. How in the world could anyone pass a class and become an instructor if a student died during that class?

IANTD is also notorious for just giving out instructor and IT cards to anyone that can bring in enough business. They have given cave rebreather instructor cards to at least on guy who is not or ever been any kind of instructor. I believe he is now an IT now since he is well known in the cave and breather community. Being knowledgeable about any subject doesn't mean you know how to teach it in my opinion but apparently IANTD doesn't see it this way.

 

[kelemvor]

Trying to operate a business like the internet doesn't exist is not just short sighted: it's ludicrous.

I believe it's happening less and less because those businesses are going under. I've only been diving for 6 years now, and I would say in that short time I've seen a marked reduction in people posting here about an LDS doing some crazy thing when they found a diver had also shopped online. It still happens, but I think most of these people have either come to terms with the situation or gone out of business.

 

[The Chairman]

There was a situation in Jackson Blue

Wasn't that an NSSCDS 'situation'??? They don't mess around and while they don't understand the interwebs much at all, they have the highest training standards I'm aware of.

 

[bamafan]

Wasn't that an NSSCDS 'situation'??? They don't mess around and while they don't understand the interwebs much at all, they have the highest training standards I'm aware of.

I am not sure what agency it was. I was there shortly after the incident and remember seeing the spools coming out from the eol of the "lost student tunnel" and running out past chicken head rock to about the middle of the main passage where they were dropped. I assume they saw the gold line and just swam over to it.

As far as the CDS having the highest standards I totally disagree. In my opinion they are no better than any other agency. I have seen CDS instructors, bod members and full cave CDS trained divers who look like crap. There are some good instructors in all agencies but the only agency I would recommend based on the agency only is GUE. The CDS likes to wave the magic wand too.