Considering a move from Jacket to bp/wing .. need opinions please.

[FrogManMike]

FrogManMike, I have nothing against you, you seem pretty experienced with diving just not that experience with certain diving gear but seriously, face plant on the surface...
That's like asking "why did I hit a tree just cus I floored the gas."

Like I said in an earlier post I contributed that to my inexperience of the proper use and the lack of proper training of how to use a back plate mounted BC or any other type of BC for that matter, I didn't like it so I traded up. I pretty much learned how to use the devices by trial and error. take in consideration this was around 27 something years ago and the devices were just hitting the market.

If you dive with a plate why not consider sidemount with a tiny 18lbs bladder? YouTube - Steve Bogaerts Sidemount Skills demo in a Razor Harness

No plate, nothing between you and a tiny wing and full freedom of movement.

I'm trying out sm cus of a busted knee.

SangP

I use my Backplate and harness for cold water dives.
I like my Tommy D Sport BC just fine. I was merely making a suggestion to the OP before this turned into a

Why is there even discussion of going bcd less on a basic scuba section n how off topic is this to the op's question of moving from Jacket to bp/wing?

I will take the blame for that because I made the comment about diving BC less
I learned to dive BC less because there was no such thing as a BC because SCUBA was relatively a new when I took up the sport. we called it skin diving back then. Then that is when someone else started posting their own assumptions about what I posted and the snowball started rolling from that point

I will also add that all SCUBA certification agencies should start all students out without a BC so that the student can become familiar with Properly weighting themselves with and without a wet suit and how their buoyancy will change between a full and empty gas bottle, etc there are a lot of variables when it concerns buoyancy that you just cant experience with a BC on however in the same respect the student should also be trained in the proper use of a BCD.
I also think it should be to the discression of the diver whether they choose to Use a BC or not.
JM.02 YMMV

 

[SangP]

FrogManMike,

You could have mentioned the 27 yrs ago part lol! Come on things have improved somewhat since, then .

Now a bp w/o wing in dry... don't start something again lol!

Now I want to dive with you cus you might have gear I've never seen !

SangP

 

[FrogManMike]

Ya I probably do and most of it is dry rotted
everything I have now is pretty much Bran spanking new except for my tanks and other non rubberized gear




Boy takk about threadlacked:hijackedthread:

 

[Thalassamania]

Hopefully no one is stupid enough to give it a try cus they hear it first on scubaboard...

Founders of NAUI, PADI... military... FOUNDERS right? They're the guys that did things the hard way before realizing that there was a better and safer way to do things.

Actually no, founders were scientific divers out of Scripps Institution of Oceanography, not military, and then out of LA County Recreation Department.

With the exception of surface supplied military divers, what military divers don't use bcds? Even the ccr guys use a bcd.

Military divers at the time wore a Mae West, which was not a BC. CCR divers wear breathing bags, that's part of the CCR, it's not a BC either.

Sure diving caveman style is totally acceptable for the caveman. Testosterone fueled adventurers is exactly how I view diving today without the use of safety gear, why not just dive without a computer or tables, they did it so what's wrong?

A BC is not "safety gear" it is an underwater convenience to compensate for the weight of gas used or for wet suit compression. Safety gear would be something more like a FENZY.

Experience does lend itself to being better able to handle yourself should something go wrong so unless it's some ridiculously difficult to operate contraption, whats the reason for diving without a bcd? Uncomfortable, difficult to operate with thumbs, I like diving with more freedom, additional drag??? These are excuses not reasons.

Let's ask the proper questions first ... why wear a BC? Under what conditions is it useful, under what conditions is it essential?

FrogManMike, I have nothing against you, you seem pretty experienced with diving just not that experience with certain diving gear but seriously, face plant on the surface...
That's like asking "why did I hit a tree just cus I floored the gas."

Your analogy is flawed, even fatuous.

 

[FrogManMike]

Thalassamania
I read your profile Blog and it is quite impressive I also noticed you like old fighter planes
so since this thread is already jacked up what do you think about My scale foamy F4U?

I am also Big on scratch building R/C foamies:cool2:

 

[Thalassamania]

Nice. I've always wanted a check ride in an F4U (or, even better, an F2G). I've had a chance to go up in an AT-6, P-38 and P-51, but I really lust after the big air cooled planes like the Corsairs and the Thunderbolts.

 

[SangP]

Actually no, founders were scientific divers out of Scripps Institution of Oceanography, not military, and then out of LA County Recreation Department.
Military divers at the time wore a Mae West, which was not a BC. CCR divers wear breathing bags, that's part of the CCR, it's not a BC either.

Again you totally miss read the post, I referred it from Akimbo earlier post while my point is the FOUNDERS bit, the then vs the NOW. While I referring to what they did then what what was available then compared to NOW. There're easier and safer ways of doing it now! I familiar with what the gear the military ccr divers use and yes there is a bcd somewhere there as well.

A BC is not "safety gear" it is an underwater convenience to compensate for the weight of gas used or for wet suit compression. Safety gear would be something more like a FENZY.
Let's ask the proper questions first ... why wear a BC? Under what conditions is it useful, under what conditions is it essential?
Your analogy is flawed, even fatuous.

You might as well say defibrillator and D.A.N. oxygen system for safety equipment, we're talking bout underwater gear here. Granted a bcd isn't quite a life support gear but then the important question is DO U USE A BCD?

What's interesting is that a safety diver would argue against the use of a BCD...???

Seriously, you're starting to sound like an old, out of tune vinyl.

You can continue to debate all you want but I've made my point that there is no place for bcd-less diving for rec or tech n unless you're supremely experienced (frogman you belong in this group ), brave or just plain foolish there is no need to do it just for the sake of doing it NUFF SAID.

SangP

 

[Thalassamania]

SangP, let's see how many things, that are not matters of opinon, you've gotten wrong:

1. Who were the "Founders."
2. Many military divers TODAY do not use what you'd call a BC, they us a double CO2 cartridge version of the old USD 707.
3. Military CCR divers do not use a BC.
4. You don't know what a FENZY is.

... and you think anyone should take any of your opinions seriously?

I use a BC when I am diving thick wetsuit, or when I am carrying more gas than I can comfortably shift on my lungs, or when a BC happens to be the only thing I have conveniently to hand to hold a tank on my back.

I often do not wear a BC: when diving dry or when diving without a wetsuit or when diving with a thin wetsuit or when I pilot a submersible or when I bathe.

I am not, and have rarely been, a safety diver.

 

[FrogManMike]

Nice. I've always wanted a check ride in an F4U (or, even better, an F2G). I've had a chance to go up in an AT-6, P-38 and P-51, but I really lust after the big air cooled planes like the Corsairs and the Thunderbolts.

I would love to have the Opportunity to fly a Stang and most definately would love to ride in a Corsair however I have flown all the models of the planes you mentioned from the ground with a boxed stick and rudder, I know not quite the same but still a blast just the same:cool2:

I did however get the chance to jockey an A 6 Texan and s Stearman
I am amazed how slow a Stearman can fly without stalling.

Anyway back to getting close to the original topic

Reading your blog and some of your comments you and I were introduced To SCUBA in very similar fashion and circumstances. when I learned to dive by my uncle I did not have the Luxury of training with a BCD therefore thought nothing about any risk or danger diving without one and now that the devices are more abundant in so many different styles it boggles the mind i still feel that i am not taking any risk or in danger diving without one no more than i feel a great sense of security using one.
as far as a driving analogy I look at a BC kind along the same lines as driving around with the windows down VS driving around with the windows up and the AC kicking.
They are more of a luxury than a necessity.

Here is something for those who think as a BCD as a safety device: if you get in trouble at say the depth of 50 feet lets say you panic for whatever the reason (fill in the blank's)
and you deploy the BC for a rapid ascent then you stand a better chance of injury than you would just ditching your weight....Blown out Lung,ear drum, nitrogen etc, Take your pick.
now lets say you are on a chartered dive and you and your buddy get separated from your party after ascending from a dive and the boat is no where in sight then the deployment of the BC acts as a life preserver to help keep you afloat. these are just a couple of scenarios that come to mind however it is what it is and they named the device according to its intended purpose it is called a 'Buoyancy Compensator" because that is what it was purposely designed for nothing more nothing less.
it was never designed as a life saving device nor should it be viewed as such and i personally think anyone who views the device as a life saving device are potentially setting themselves up for disaster.
Now if they ever make a BCD with a spare air integrated then I might look at it as a safety device or better yet a BC with an added safety feature.