Considering a move from Jacket to bp/wing .. need opinions please.

[Akimbo]

I have friends who used to be commercial divers and before safety issues became a concern, a lot of them dove without any bcds . …

The most common problem I've seen is with those guys are busted ear drums. Going down too fast with all the gear and not being able control their descent cus they're working when they are having the flu n can't equalize fast enough…

Not sure I understand. Are you taking about commercial divers in both posts? In any case, why would any Scuba diver be so negatively buoyant on the surface?

I see BCs as a convenience; whether it is a jacket, wing, or horse collar — certainly not as a critical life saving device. Dropping weight is a reliable method of dealing with emergency surfacing. Archimedes works regardless of equipment malfunctions, diver errors, and medical conditions.

The method was quite successful for many years before BCs were developed. Even in tropical water, I believe wearing enough of a wetsuit to provide slight positive buoyancy at the surface is prudent for individuals who are not naturally buoyant.

I have never heard of a real incident where a surface supplied commercial or military diver was hurt by an uncontrolled initial descent. They are on the end of an umbilical and have voice communications and hand signals (sequence of hose tugs). They may not have a downline or stage in shallow water, but even a lousy tender won’t just throw hose over the side. They are quite often intentionally very negative and a lot wear Wellies (Wellington Rubber Boots) instead of fins so tenders and supervisors aren't going to just let them fall to the bottom.

 

[FrogManMike]

FWIW
I would rather not use a BC at all but for safety sake I use one however for years I dove without one but now BC is a required piece of safety equipment and when I finally bought one I bought a back plate wing type and hated it because it put me face down in the water. then I bought a horse collar (adjustable Life vest type) and hated it because it put me face up on my back but I liked it better than the wing. Then I bought a US Divers jacket and liked it ok
but my favorite was a Dacor stabilizer type weight integrated vest it kept me vertical in the water however I could position my self horizontally face down or on my back if I wanted
I now have a Tommy D sports weight integrated BC which I like as well as the Dacor I had and it is probably the cheapest thing on the market.
I had the opportunity to test dive a Zeagle rapid diver system and loved it but I just don't have the cash to get one.
best thing to do is go to a LDS with a pool and see try one out and see what you like better.

I'm not "calling you out" in any way hostile, I'm simply questioning your statement just like Ben said.
In one single post you said you used to dive with no BC all the time. Then in the same breath you say a BC is an essential piece of diving equipment which leads the reader to think that BC-less diving was wrong from the get go and the BC was the savior that should have been there from the start.
I see it as the BC came along to cover for shortcomings in ability and training simply because it took to much time to properly teach people how to dive sans BC, and with the new elevator device anybody could overcome weighting issues and be a pro in four ocean check out dives, just hit the button. There was money to be made so the conveyor belt needed to be ramped up.

So that's what confused me.

BTW, I dive with no BC all the time. There are numerous divers down in LA that dive for lobsters that use no BC. BC-less diving is being rediscovered by many people all over the U.S.
I happen to be one of them.

One last question.
When you used to backpack dive and you were on the surface, did you get face planted?

calling someone out is calling someone out whether hostile or not like I said in an earlier post without being this specific when I used to do a lot of wreck diving when I was younger a lot of the Captains would not even let you on the boat without a BC maybe that was their way to make a little extra money by renting me one of theirs so yes using a BC was a requirement, not mine but nevertheless a requirement as it is with many other places.
I never said that it was one of my requirements but thirty something years ago when I was forced to take lessons to get a C card in order to get my tanks filled when I walked in the Y with my gear the Director required that I have one in order to take lessons.
the same as I would rather not wear a helmet when I ride a bike I just go ahead and put it on to keep from getting pulled over because it is mandatory here, do you see where I am going with without having to write a book in order to explain my self?

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

OK. Here is what's not making sense to me:

..."FWIW
I would rather not use a BC at all but for safety sake I use one"...

What's unsafe about not using a BC if you where initially trained to dive without a BC?
You would have known about proper weighting, lung control, max depth limits, weight belt ditching, CESA, etc.

Then:

..."however for years I dove without one but now BC is a required piece of safety equipment"...

By whom? I don't see any mention of charter boats or instructors. I would assume by this statement that it meant the industry or scuba police rules over everybody and you'll get struck down if you don't use one.

This one confuses me the most and I find the most misleading. New divers need to know that a bp/w DOES NOT plant you face down if you know how to properly use one:

..."and when I finally bought one I bought a back plate wing type and hated it because it put me face down in the water."

Finally, if you used to dive with no BC then you should know, by your own admission, that proper weighting is critical. A modern standard plate can be used to backpack dive with no BC. When one dives with the added weight of a metal plate the equal amount comes off the belt, correct?
So theoretically absolutely nothing changes when going from diving without a wing to diving with a wing exept the addition of a wing and one hose. Everything else remains exactly the same. So then how would having a wing on your back plant you face down if you are able to float and remain on the surface with no air in the wing? The only way a back inflate system like the bp/w could force you face down is if you have to much air in it. If you were trained to dive with no BC then you should't have any air in your wing at the surface or at least very little, right, you should know this. You didn't need a floatie then, why would you now?
A BC was supposed to be a depth compensation device to be used at depth. It is not a float tube or a rubber raft and it is not a safety device, it is a convenience. It even says so on every tag on the inside of every BC I've ever seen "This is not a life jacket".

I'm actually writing and responding to your post mostly for the benefit of other new divers that may be considering getting into a back inflate or bp/w sysytem. Yes, I do have a vested interest.

This face plant crap is really starting to get me. I thought we blew up this myth years ago.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Looky here.

Gallery of California Backpack Divers : 1999-2001

No BC's and on a charter boat.
I must be in heaven.

Pay no mind to the dates, it's bigger than ever in 2010.

 

[rollerboi]

they're working when they are having the flu n can't equalize fast enough.

[.. snip ..]

Scuba diving without a any form of bcds is really pushing the limits of safety.

Seems like scuba diving with the flu is pushing the limits of safety, all by itself. (I'm not disavowing any of your other contributing factors, just pointing out that someone with the flu shouldn't be hitting the water anyways.)

 

[seacreatures]

Vests are for Skiers and wings are for flying, I'll take flying underwater thank you

 

[Bonairetrip]

You're welcome. For single tank diving, I would suggest a couple of set ups:

1. Oxycheq steel plate with oxycheq mach V wing, no sta, two cambands, xs scuba camband pockets for weight, "hogarthian" 1 piece harness.

2. The same thing, except instead of the oxycheq backplate, try Eric's (ZKY) Freedom plate. This is one of the most comfortable plates available, it's very well designed for single tanks. I have one, I love it. It is smaller than a full size steel plate and provides a bit less ballast, but it is also a bit lighter for travel. It's not for doubles; so if you want a single plate for singles and doubles this is not it. However, I find that I prefer an AL plate for doubles anyway, so I bought a hammerhead AL plate that I usually only use with doubles. It's not that expensive.

3. Deep sea supply single tank plate/wing set up. This is a very well designed integrated set up that you buy directly from DSS. Customer service is superlative, and the gear is very high quality.

For the oxycheq stuff, check out caveadventurers.com.

Here's the thing about the plate on your back. Scuba involves carrying a big cumbersome metal object on your back, the tank. When you attach it to a rigid plate, it spreads the contact out over a large area of your back, and effectively "couples" the tank to your back. This is what results in comfort, not a sloshy padded "backpack" or "vest" type garment.

I have used #1 and #3 and both are solid options!! #3 is what I use tropical -- Stainless plate, hog, not STA and a T-17# wing -- and I could not be happier. I tend to wear a t-shirt under the wing and that is it (no wetsuit).

(I have no comment on #2 having not personally used that plate).

I also bolded a line I found very true.

 

[Bonairetrip]

I only need a single tank wing (for now... I can't wait to start doubles!!), I weigh 190 lbs of lean mass, and don't carry any other gear other than a knife, light, spool, and sausage. I want to be kept streamlined, how much lift on a wing would be sufficient? On my last trip, I had a 7mm suit in salt water with a steel tank and used 8 lbs of weight. Hollis offered 25 and 38 lb wings - and of the 2, i was thinking 38 just to be sure I would have enough for various types of dives, but fear it might be too big and floppy. I see that most people in some forums have the 25 lb, and were all very happy with it... what is your opinion on this?

Your wing needs to do two things. First, float your kit at the surface without you in it. Second, it needs to make you positive at depth and with a full tank. Call DSS and chat with Tobin -- he can step you through the choices...

 

[SangP]

Not sure I understand. Are you taking about commercial divers in both posts? In any case, why would any Scuba diver be so negatively buoyant on the surface?

I see BCs as a convenience; whether it is a jacket, wing, or horse collar — certainly not as a critical life saving device. Dropping weight is a reliable method of dealing with emergency surfacing. Archimedes works regardless of equipment malfunctions, diver errors, and medical conditions.

The method was quite successful for many years before BCs were developed. Even in tropical water, I believe wearing enough of a wetsuit to provide slight positive buoyancy at the surface is prudent for individuals who are not naturally buoyant.

I have never heard of a real incident where a surface supplied commercial or military diver was hurt by an uncontrolled initial descent. They are on the end of an umbilical and have voice communications and hand signals (sequence of hose tugs). They may not have a downline or stage in shallow water, but even a lousy tender won’t just throw hose over the side. They are quite often intentionally very negative and a lot wear Wellies (Wellington Rubber Boots) instead of fins so tenders and supervisors aren't going to just let them fall to the bottom.

Yes I was talking about commercial divers n not every dive is a helmet dive. During that unfortunate day, he was using a single tank attached to a harness and bringing some tools to another diver.

He had been diving for years and was a naval diver during his national service days however, on that day, he was over weighted, not feeling well and couldn't just drop the tools. He ruptured his ear drums as he could not control his descent.

Granted that this is one of those situations that could and should not have happened, but when you're working with a deadline you do things that you really should not have like diving with the flu etc.

Back on topic, diving without a bcd is really a bad idea and unless a professional diving agency says diving without one is ok, I'll it to the brave or foolish.

SangP

 

[fnfalman]

Back on topic, diving without a bcd is really a bad idea and unless a professional diving agency says diving without one is ok, I'll it to the brave or foolish.

SangP

What's bad about it? People have safely dived for decades before the BC in any form come along.

If you have proper training and know how to rig & weight your equipment and yourself, what exactly is the problem?

As far as not brave enough to dive without a BC, that's your choice. There are plenty of people in the world that thinks diving is for the crazy or the foolish, BC or no BC.