Considering a move from Jacket to bp/wing .. need opinions please.

[Akimbo]

Yes I was talking about commercial divers n not every dive is a helmet dive. During that unfortunate day, he was using a single tank attached to a harness and bringing some tools to another diver.

He had been diving for years and was a naval diver during his national service days however, on that day, he was over weighted, not feeling well and couldn't just drop the tools. He ruptured his ear drums as he could not control his descent…

If he was on Scuba he should have known better, if he was surface supplied, his tender should be run off. Considering he was not willing to drop the tools or weightbelt, it is not clear if he would have used a hand for his BC either.

Back on topic, diving without a bcd is really a bad idea and unless a professional diving agency says diving without one is ok, I'll it to the brave or foolish…

I believe you made an excellent case for never underestimating Archimedes Principal rather than that BCs are mandatory. Regardless of training or experience, diving stupid, even momentary, is what is dangerous. Physics is relentlessly reliable. IMHO, the "brave or foolish comment" is grossly overstated. Are you saying all the Scuba diving before the early 1980s foolish?

 

[SangP]

What's bad about it? People have safely dived for decades before the BC in any form come along.

If you have proper training and know how to rig & weight your equipment and yourself, what exactly is the problem?

As far as not brave enough to dive without a BC, that's your choice. There are plenty of people in the world that thinks diving is for the crazy or the foolish, BC or no BC.

Proper training and no bcd? Tell me what kind of "proper scuba training" doesn't involve the use of a bcd?

Diving for decades without bcd, yeah, there wasn't any deco tables or gas management then too.

If he was on Scuba he should have known better, if he was surface supplied, his tender should be run off. Considering he was not willing to drop the tools or weightbelt, it is not clear if he would have used a hand for his BC either.

Interesting comment, dropping tools at a work diving site. Do you drop tools at a construction site? Not having one hand free... lol!

I believe you made an excellent case for never underestimating rather than that BCs are mandatory. Regardless of training or experience, diving stupid, even momentary, is what is dangerous. Physics is relentlessly reliable. IMHO, the "brave or foolish comment" is grossly overstated. Are you saying all the Scuba diving before the early 1980s foolish?

Archimedes Principal... either you're a physics geek or dive in a fish bowl. Accidents can and will happen. I believe you're just demonstrated a lack of understanding of diving risk management/mitigation.

Diving without a bcd is fine, so is diving without fins, masks etc. There should be a section just for scuba diving without any gear... ah wait, scubaboard... sued again.

SangP

 

[Thalassamania]

Yes I was talking about commercial divers n not every dive is a helmet dive. During that unfortunate day, he was using a single tank attached to a harness and bringing some tools to another diver.

If he was diving scuba, he should have know better, if he was diving surface supplied, his tools should have come down in canvas bucket.

He had been diving for years and was a naval diver during his national service days however, on that day, he was over weighted, not feeling well and couldn't just drop the tools. He ruptured his ear drums as he could not control his descent.

National Service or no, he was behaving like a rank amateur.

Granted that this is one of those situations that could and should not have happened, but when you're working with a deadline you do things that you really should not have like diving with the flu etc.

That is the difference between a pro and a posser. The pro doesn't change anything to accomidate other peoples' deadlines except the number of divers on the job.

Back on topic, diving without a bcd is really a bad idea and unless a professional diving agency says diving without one is ok, I'll it to the brave or foolish.

What "professional" agency is going to tell me how to minimize risks and effectively perform commercial diving tasks? PADI? NAUI? SSI? You've got to be kidding.

Last time I checked, the ADC doesn't care if I wear a BC or not.

 

[SangP]

If he was diving scuba, he should have know better, if he was diving surface supplied, his tools should have come down in canvas bucket.
National Service or no, he was behaving like a rank amateur.
That is the difference between a pro and a posser. The pro doesn't change anything to accomidate other peoples' deadlines except the number of divers on the job.

I couldn't agree more, that fact that he got himself in that situation is his own fault. With proper gear and consideration he could have saved himself a lot of grief which is the point of my post.

What "professional" agency is going to tell me how to minimize risks and effectively perform commercial diving tasks? PADI? NAUI? SSI? You've got to be kidding agreerofl3:

Last time I checked, the ADC doesn't care if I wear a BC or not.

You're not reading between the lines or confusing my statement between commercial diving and rec diving which is why I wrote "proper scuba training" in my last post.

You're entitled to your views that it's perfectly fine to dive without a bcd and I'm equally opposed to that view as unnecessarily risky. What, a wing somehow makes the dive more uncomfortable?

SangP

 

[Akimbo]

...Interesting comment, dropping tools at a work diving site. Do you drop tools at a construction site? Not having one hand free... lol!...

Weightbelt first, tools second, bodily harm third. I have pointed out that BCs can occasionally be a useful convenience in a commercial diving setting. Not often, but the tool has its place. That should not be confused with life support systems.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/commercial-divers/332573-using-bc-ssa-commercial-work.html

…Archimedes Principal... either you're a physics geek or dive in a fish bowl. Accidents can and will happen. I believe you're just demonstrated a lack of understanding of diving risk management/mitigation…

I am sure your assessment will be quite a shock to a number of certification agencies and diving contractors. Do you think they will want refunds for all those failure mode analyses I wrote?

 

[Thalassamania]

I suppose I should join you and pay back my Diving Safety Officer's salary for the decades I did that job and withdraw my sixty odd safety related publications.

 

[SangP]

That's the difference between professional commercial training agencies vs recreational padi or naui stuff. Commercial or public safety divers can do without a bcd cus they have specialized training n have other fail safes, use surface supplied gas n are trained to be prepared for emergencies that rec divers will almost never face.

A regular rec diver without such specialized training or at least having some advanced swimming experience going bcd-less... foolish.

Already there are so many scuba incidents, you think the average Joe or Jane should try diving bcd-less just cos they read about it here?

I've picked up quite a few dropped fins n I dread to think of a diver going without a bcd n using a heavy steel tank. What, ditch the tank n go ahhh to the surface n hope for the best?

Some of the rec guys have problems clearing masks, much less have the frame of mind to handle loss of buoyancy.

This is a scuba board not ACDI, ACDE, IDI or even a safety diver board. Heck even the guys at thedecostop are even more paranoid about safety.

Personally I wouldn't mind diving without a bcd but I will bring along a lift bag just in case.

SangP

 

[Akimbo]

… A regular rec diver without such specialized training or at least having some advanced swimming experience going bcd-less... foolish…

You're right, Cousteau, his entire team, the world's military, the founders of NAUI and PADI, and everyone who used Scuba before BCs became common were all incompetent testosterone fueled adventurers with no regard for human life.

…Already there are so many scuba incidents, you think the average Joe or Jane should try diving bcd-less just cos they read about it here…

No, that is not what was written. The average Joe and Jane will hopefully understand that their BC is a convenience and realize that they should not be dependant on it to save their lives. Reading it here would be sad rather than having learned the concept from basic Scuba training.

 

[FrogManMike]

Just WoW
I did imply that using BCD is a requirement, when what I should have said that Cert agencies and resorts strongly advocate the use of BC's ever since they hit the open market at least to the extent of my knowledge
I was using the term "required" and I think the term I used "added safety"toungue loosely in cheek but apparently few took it quite literally however with some charter boats a BC is a requirement PER the terms of their rules whether you choose to believe that or not does not change that fact.

I personally think that a BC does offer some safety features for an inexperienced diver that is all I was trying to say.
however i feel no more comfortable diving BC-less as I do with one on but I also know how to properly weight myself.

I was diving way before the BC was invented so I can take it or leave it, as some people have already pointed out people were SCUBA diving way before the BC was even invented.
moerover when I use My back plate rig it will be wingless because as I have already stated I Hate Wings if you do good More power to you but dont crawl my ass just because I dont!:mooner:

IMO use what you like... or not
to each their own.

for the record cave diving with a BC is about as useful as tits on a boar

 

[SangP]

You're right, Cousteau, his entire team, the world's military, the founders of NAUI and PADI, and everyone who used Scuba before BCs became common were all incompetent testosterone fueled adventurers with no regard for human life.



No, that is not what was written. The average Joe and Jane will hopefully understand that their BC is a convenience and realize that they should not be dependant on it to save their lives. Reading it here would be sad rather than having learned the concept from basic Scuba training.

Hopefully no one is stupid enough to give it a try cus they hear it first on scubaboard...

Founders of NAUI, PADI... military... FOUNDERS right? They're the guys that did things the hard way before realizing that there was a better and safer way to do things.

With the exception of surface supplied military divers, what military divers don't use bcds? Even the ccr guys use a bcd.

Sure diving caveman style is totally acceptable for the caveman. Testosterone fueled adventurers is exactly how I view diving today without the use of safety gear, why not just dive without a computer or tables, they did it so what's wrong?

Experience does lend itself to being better able to handle yourself should something go wrong so unless it's some ridiculously difficult to operate contraption, whats the reason for diving without a bcd? Uncomfortable, difficult to operate with thumbs, I like diving with more freedom, additional drag??? These are excuses not reasons.

FrogManMike, I have nothing against you, you seem pretty experienced with diving just not that experience with certain diving gear but seriously, face plant on the surface...
That's like asking "why did I hit a tree just cus I floored the gas."

If you dive with a plate why not consider sidemount with a tiny 18lbs bladder? YouTube - Steve Bogaerts Sidemount Skills demo in a Razor Harness
No plate, nothing between you and a tiny wing and full freedom of movement.

I'm trying out sm cus of a busted knee.

SangP

Why is there even discussion of going bcd less on a basic scuba section n how off topic is this to the op's question of moving from Jacket to bp/wing?