Considering a move from Jacket to bp/wing .. need opinions please.

[FrogManMike]

How is it that you dove without a BC for years, then suddenly a BC became a necessary piece of safety equipment and you no longer could dive sans BC? What changed?

And if you were weighted properly diving without a BC (which you are forced to be otherwise it won't work unless you want to crawl around on the bottom) how would it be that a BP/W forces you face down on the surface?
Usually the reason people get the face down is because they are overweighted and require putting a bunch of air in the wing to stay floating, and as a result the wing wants to be the highest thing thus putting the diver face down.

Why do you feel the need to try to call me out on what I said?

I started diving in the mid 1970's when it was not even a requirement to have a c-card and you could buy scuba gear at JC Penny in the sporting goods department and the reason i started using BC's is because the dive shops that i booked several dives with required me to use a BC.
the rest you can mark down from personal preference and experience

ya back then not a lot of people were using BC's and you can probably contribute to the fact I did not know much about how to properly use a BC

one thing i did learn to do from not using a BC is to properly weight myself.

 

[FrogManMike]

BC is a required safety equipment by whom?

Nobody is going to make you use a BC. There are several people that I know who still don't use BC.

There are numerous Diveresorts snd dive
boats who require the use of a BC.

 

[Ben_ca]

I don't see that ZKY was attacking you just addressing your statements... This is a discussion board and you have to take into account the media we are using. If you are getting riled up with this discussion wait till it gets really heated.... This is Basic Scuba btw

 

[FrogManMike]

Sure sounded like it to me if that was not his intentions then I apologize.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Why do you feel the need to try to call me out on what I said?

I started diving in the mid 1970's when it was not even a requirement to have a c-card and you could buy scuba gear at JC Penny in the sporting goods department and the reason i started using BC's is because the dive shops that i booked several dives with required me to use a BC.
the rest you can mark down from personal preference and experience

ya back then not a lot of people were using BC's and you can probably contribute to the fact I did not know much about how to properly use a BC

one thing i did learn to do from not using a BC is to properly weight myself.

I'm not "calling you out" in any way hostile, I'm simply questioning your statement just like Ben said.
In one single post you said you used to dive with no BC all the time. Then in the same breath you say a BC is an essential piece of diving equipment which leads the reader to think that BC-less diving was wrong from the get go and the BC was the savior that should have been there from the start.
I see it as the BC came along to cover for shortcomings in ability and training simply because it took to much time to properly teach people how to dive sans BC, and with the new elevator device anybody could overcome weighting issues and be a pro in four ocean check out dives, just hit the button. There was money to be made so the conveyor belt needed to be ramped up.

So that's what confused me.

BTW, I dive with no BC all the time. There are numerous divers down in LA that dive for lobsters that use no BC. BC-less diving is being rediscovered by many people all over the U.S.
I happen to be one of them.

One last question.
When you used to backpack dive and you were on the surface, did you get face planted?

 

[SangP]

Thanks for that input! This could end up saving me some nice cash! ... I was thinking I wouldn't want a cumberband - quite frankly because it's cumbersome and part of my decision for a bp/w is that your entire front side is free. I also imagined that the padding on the back wouldn't do much underwater, but figured it would be more comfortable while gearing up - or if I wanted to jump in without a suit on, it might be nice incase the metal gets hot. The sound of bare metal on the skin doesn't seem pleasant - is it fairly comfortable resting on your back (even if walking on shore and bouncing across rocks)? Do the corners or edges ever dig into your skin? Or would you ever think the metal could tear your suit?

Your last comments also bring up something running through my head... a small streamlined wing. I only need a single tank wing (for now... I can't wait to start doubles!!), I weigh 190 lbs of lean mass, and don't carry any other gear other than a knife, light, spool, and sausage. I want to be kept streamlined, how much lift on a wing would be sufficient? On my last trip, I had a 7mm suit in salt water with a steel tank and used 8 lbs of weight. Hollis offered 25 and 38 lb wings - and of the 2, i was thinking 38 just to be sure I would have enough for various types of dives, but fear it might be too big and floppy. I see that most people in some forums have the 25 lb, and were all very happy with it... what is your opinion on this?

I really appreciate the input!! This will be my first kit and I've only done about 50 dives, so I'm not that experienced or knowledgable with gear.

The bp/w rig is really for people who dive with what they need not want. For most single tank dives a 30lbs wing is more than enough.

I recommend that you talk to Edd at caveadventurers.com or Randy at Piranha Dive Manufacturing

Get their advice, look around for other packages n see which one suits you best n see who is willing to give you the best prices.

TECHNICAL SCUBA BCD PACKAGE @ Divers-Supply.com
BackPlate and Wing Package reviews and discounts, Dive Rite
Deep Sea Supply Single Tank Rig with LCD30 Wing [DSS-STR-LCD30] - $496.00 : Tech Diving Limited, a subsidiary of Scuba Training and Technology Inc.

Personally if I had to do it all over again with a bp/w it would be:
1. Dive rite alu plate with basic harness & 2" crouch strap or a DSS kydex plate. They have the smoothest finish n doesn't damage the webbing as bad as my halcyon or oms.
2. Oxycheq mach v 30 signature wing. That thing makes my halcyon eclipse look like a blimp.
3. Oxycheq mini single tank adapter
4. Dive rite ss cam band.

Go bug Edd to see if he can give that set for you for $375 or less ! Edd happens to be a stone's throw away from Oxcheq so he can bring a bat to Patrick if something goes wrong lol!

SangP

 

[SangP]

I'm not "calling you out" in any way hostile, I'm simply questioning your statement just like Ben said.
In one single post you said you used to dive with no BC all the time. Then in the same breath you say a BC is an essential piece of diving equipment which leads the reader to think that BC-less diving was wrong from the get go and the BC was the savior that should have been there from the start.
I see it as the BC came along to cover for shortcomings in ability and training simply because it took to much time to properly teach people how to dive sans BC, and with the new elevator device anybody could overcome weighting issues and be a pro in four ocean check out dives, just hit the button. There was money to be made so the conveyor belt needed to be ramped up.

So that's what confused me.

BTW, I dive with no BC all the time. There are numerous divers down in LA that dive for lobsters that use no BC. BC-less diving is being rediscovered by many people all over the U.S.
I happen to be one of them.

One last question.
When you used to backpack dive and you were on the surface, did you get face planted?

I have friends who used to be commercial divers and before safety issues became a concern, a lot of them dove without any bcds . You can read about a lot of comments about divers getting pushed head first with back inflates and it's due to inexperience with the gear.

For back inflates you only inflate enough that you can float comfortably out of the water, you don't inflate it to the max.

If you like diving with as much freedom as possible you can check out side mount diving from Edd at caveadventurers.com - Home but diving without any form of bcd is an accident waiting to happen.

I'm going sidemount due to a recent knee injury.

SangP

 

[Thalassamania]

... diving without any form of bcd is an accident waiting to happen.

...

What sort of accident do you envision being promulgated by not having any "form of bcd"?

 

[halocline]

Thanks for that input! This could end up saving me some nice cash! ... I was thinking I wouldn't want a cumberband - quite frankly because it's cumbersome and part of my decision for a bp/w is that your entire front side is free. I also imagined that the padding on the back wouldn't do much underwater, but figured it would be more comfortable while gearing up - or if I wanted to jump in without a suit on, it might be nice incase the metal gets hot. The sound of bare metal on the skin doesn't seem pleasant - is it fairly comfortable resting on your back (even if walking on shore and bouncing across rocks)? Do the corners or edges ever dig into your skin? Or would you ever think the metal could tear your suit?

Your last comments also bring up something running through my head... a small streamlined wing. I only need a single tank wing (for now... I can't wait to start doubles!!), I weigh 190 lbs of lean mass, and don't carry any other gear other than a knife, light, spool, and sausage. I want to be kept streamlined, how much lift on a wing would be sufficient? On my last trip, I had a 7mm suit in salt water with a steel tank and used 8 lbs of weight. Hollis offered 25 and 38 lb wings - and of the 2, i was thinking 38 just to be sure I would have enough for various types of dives, but fear it might be too big and floppy. I see that most people in some forums have the 25 lb, and were all very happy with it... what is your opinion on this?

I really appreciate the input!! This will be my first kit and I've only done about 50 dives, so I'm not that experienced or knowledgable with gear.

You're welcome. For single tank diving, I would suggest a couple of set ups:

1. Oxycheq steel plate with oxycheq mach V wing, no sta, two cambands, xs scuba camband pockets for weight, "hogarthian" 1 piece harness.

2. The same thing, except instead of the oxycheq backplate, try Eric's (ZKY) Freedom plate. This is one of the most comfortable plates available, it's very well designed for single tanks. I have one, I love it. It is smaller than a full size steel plate and provides a bit less ballast, but it is also a bit lighter for travel. It's not for doubles; so if you want a single plate for singles and doubles this is not it. However, I find that I prefer an AL plate for doubles anyway, so I bought a hammerhead AL plate that I usually only use with doubles. It's not that expensive.

3. Deep sea supply single tank plate/wing set up. This is a very well designed integrated set up that you buy directly from DSS. Customer service is superlative, and the gear is very high quality.

For the oxycheq stuff, check out caveadventurers.com.

Here's the thing about the plate on your back. Scuba involves carrying a big cumbersome metal object on your back, the tank. When you attach it to a rigid plate, it spreads the contact out over a large area of your back, and effectively "couples" the tank to your back. This is what results in comfort, not a sloshy padded "backpack" or "vest" type garment.

 

[SangP]

The most common problem I've seen is with those guys are busted ear drums. Going down too fast with all the gear and not being able control their descent cus they're working when they are having the flu n can't equalize fast enough.

Having to fin like crazy to get to the surface etc, etc. You've had thousands of dives and even with proper gear you've seen pp who have problems from being over weighted, regulators failing etc. Scuba diving without a any form of bcds is really pushing the limits of safety.

SangP