Considering bringing my Force Fins on vacation. Questions!!!

[hroark2112]

Update!

So I decided to go with the Force Fins and NOT bring a backup set of fins. Great decision. To be honest, I frog kicked about 90% of the time. Mostly out of pure habit, but the fins really did work for me. When I felt the urge to haul ass & fly, I switched to a flutter kick and it really did get me moving as fast as I wanted to go. I was diving a very minimalist kind of rig, SS backplate & an 18# Oxycheq wing, shorts and the Force Fins barefoot. I kind of felt naked down there! I had a blast, and everyone on the boat was talking about my "Aflac Duck" fins.

Add Little Cayman Beach Resort to the list of places visited by Force Fins!

Now all I need is a set in purple...

 

[scubadada]

Where's TN Traveler? Did something happen to him?

 

[JohnN]

For silty bottoms, there is a kick called the modified flutter....So you have an alternative to frog kick, and one you can use if you have limited room to the left or right of you...
Here is a vid I found that shows it....I guess I should film this with a diver doing it in Force Fins
Force Fins do it amazingly well, by the way.

Sorry for the thread hijack, but I've done a lot of lap swimming and find the modified flutter (a lap swimmer's natural kick) much more natural than the frog. Although perfecting my frog kick would certainly make me a better diver, I like to move slowly. Other than efficiency when trying to move rapidly, is there another compelling reason (other than the cool factor) to use the frog kick?

 

[Bob Evans]

Yes, TN is a very special friend , super smart,,,,,that zeagle diving equipment person chilled all of us. Super DARK ENERGY. I would never buy their equipment.

 

[danvolker]

Sorry for the thread hijack, but I've done a lot of lap swimming and find the modified flutter (a lap swimmer's natural kick) much more natural than the frog. Although perfecting my frog kick would certainly make me a better diver, I like to move slowly. Other than efficiency when trying to move rapidly, is there another compelling reason (other than the cool factor) to use the frog kick?

For covering long distances over a silty cave bottom, frog kick seems to be the preferred method....you can't flutter because of the probability of silting---although it should be mentioned that force fins do not silt nearly as much as most scuba fins in a flutter kick near the bottom.

I think the big kick and long glide of the frog kick, allows a cave diver to keep their heart rate and breathing rate very low, and still move along at a rate that can get them some place. I think modified flutter might actually be the faster kick, but it is not likely to have as much glide potential--not likely to be as efficient as frog kick.

When pure efficiency is desired over a non-silt bottom, and the diver is not in a ultra high state of heavy drag from doubles and dry suits....and distance needs to be covered, then the flutter or dolphin kick are going to blow away the frog kick. ( high drag doubles setups shifts the equation back toward frog kick-- because at lower speeds, their is less drag, and less drag wastes less diver energy)....When you are very low drag, as in wearing a slick wetsuit, single tank, with either a tiny wing, or no wing at all( best by far) , then dolphin kick will get you the farthest and fastest with least exertion, and this is followed by flutter kick. I find this with the best monster composite freedive fins, and I find the same with Extra Force Fins and Excellerating Force Fins.

Another way to see the Force fins, for high drag doubles divers, with high drag dry suits, is that with all this drag, if they are trying to move around a shipwreck in the ocean, the Force Fins, with a flutter kick, can create the ideal "GEARing " to push them fast and powerfully enough to deal with currents in mid water, propulsion that jet fin wearing divers will fail with, and will have little shot at doing more than sprinting and then tiring out in, then becoming a leaf in the wind

 

[RJP]

I've done a lot of lap swimming and find the modified flutter (a lap swimmer's natural kick)...

Wait... what?

Modified flutter is "from the knees" with legs bent, while swimmer's flutter kick is "from the hips" with the knees straight. Though, most recreational swimmers (who don't know what they're doing) actually do seem to use a kick somewhere between a modified flutter and a bicycle kick. Bending/dropping your knees is woefully inefficient when swimming.

[video=youtube;KK563K_DZP0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK563K_DZP0[/video]

---------- Post added September 22nd, 2015 at 08:29 AM ----------

Although perfecting my frog kick would certainly make me a better diver, I like to move slowly. Other than efficiency when trying to move rapidly, is there another compelling reason (other than the cool factor) to use the frog kick?

I think you have a fair misunderstand of the frog kick: it is NOT about moving rapidly. Not at all. It is about moving efficiently.

For the most part there is little reason to move rapidly when scuba diving, so if you want to move SLOWLY and efficiently... the frog kick is what you want to use. You'll burn through less air, you'll be more stable as you won't be rocking left/right on every kick-cycle, you'll silt less. The fact that you'll look cool is just the icing on the cake.



[video=youtube;jwig_GrcSBM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwig_GrcSBM[/video]

 

[JohnN]

Wait... what?

Modified flutter is "from the knees" with legs bent, while swimmer's flutter kick is "from the hips" with the knees straight. Though, most recreational swimmers (who don't know what they're doing) actually do seem to use a kick somewhere between a modified flutter and a bicycle kick. Bending/dropping your knees is woefully inefficient when swimming.

The "essence" of the modified flutter at least to my understanding, is the articulation of the foot at the ankle, yes the knees are bent to elevate the fins from the bottom. This ankle articulation is the essence of a lap swimmer's kick (nearly the inverse of scuba propulsion because its purpose is to keep your feet from sinking, and your primary propulsion comes from your arm movement) Again this is different from a competitive swimmer's kick (at least for moderate distances)

I would also take issue with the left/right "rocking". With ankle articulation, there really isn't any

 

[RJP]

I would also take issue with the left/right "rocking". With ankle articulation, there really isn't any

I was comparing frog kick with standard flutter kick, not modified flutter.

Either way, the main benefit of frog kicking is that it is a far more efficient kick (from both a propulsion and a metabolic standpoint) and a far more relaxed kick than flutter or modified flutter.

 

[danvolker]

Either way, the main benefit of frog kicking is that it is a far more efficient kick (from both a propulsion and a metabolic standpoint) and a far more relaxed kick than flutter or modified flutter.

I would take issue with this, except for the very slow speeds a diver enjoys with frog kick....and yes, if there is no current to fight, and there is no reason to get some place without wasting time....then frog kick is a very efficient kick...I use it myself, even with my big DiveR freedive fins, ( or Excellerating Force fins), when I am over an area with lots of lobster in it, or with other divers that naturally swim slowly. But If I want to swim sideways to a stiff current, or I have a need to go up current several hundred yards or so, I am NOT going to find Frog Kick efficient, because the current is going to push you down current--and you will never get upcurrent. I really believe that Frog kick gained popularity in the 90's, because so many cave and tech divers were dragging around double tanks and stages, often wearing dry suits, and with this massive amount of drag, any thought of swimming at speeds more like a freediver, became ridiculous, and impossible. Using big Jet fins, and pushing from this big base, made frog kicks very efficient for this low speed "loco"motion.

If I have to wear doubles, and a dry suit, then I am using my Gavin Scooter so I don't move around like most tech divers do ( leaf in the wind analogy). Usually I use a single, and ultra-minimalist gear that is very slick, and I can move like a freediver, as could anyone configured like this. I guess it's all about your mission...what is going to be fun for you

Even with no current, a flutter kick, or dolphin kick, can take me much more efficiently across a big sand flat between two reefs( time spent there is to me, wasted....So a kick with a speed that retains a resting heart rate and ultra low breathing rate, but that covers twice the ground in the same time span, is going to be the more efficient kick....For me this is usually the dolphin kick, but I switch to flutter kick and back to dolphin as it is comfortable to do so.

 

[RJP]

I would take issue with this, except for the very slow speeds a diver enjoys with frog kick....and yes, if there is no current to fight, and there is no reason to get some place without wasting time....then frog kick is a very efficient kick...I use it myself, even with my big DiveR freedive fins, ( or Excellerating Force fins), when I am over an area with lots of lobster in it, or with other divers that naturally swim slowly. But If I want to swim sideways to a stiff current, or I have a need to go up current several hundred yards or so, I am NOT going to find Frog Kick efficient, because the current is going to push you down current--and you will never get upcurrent. I really believe that Frog kick gained popularity in the 90's, because so many cave and tech divers were dragging around double tanks and stages, often wearing dry suits, and with this massive amount of drag, any thought of swimming at speeds more like a freediver, became ridiculous, and impossible. Using big Jet fins, and pushing from this big base, made frog kicks very efficient for this low speed "loco"motion.

If I have to wear doubles, and a dry suit, then I am using my Gavin Scooter so I don't move around like most tech divers do ( leaf in the wind analogy). Usually I use a single, and ultra-minimalist gear that is very slick, and I can move like a freediver, as could anyone configured like this. I guess it's all about your mission...what is going to be fun for you

Even with no current, a flutter kick, or dolphin kick, can take me much more efficiently across a big sand flat between two reefs( time spent there is to me, wasted....So a kick with a speed that retains a resting heart rate and ultra low breathing rate, but that covers twice the ground in the same time span, is going to be the more efficient kick....For me this is usually the dolphin kick, but I switch to flutter kick and back to dolphin as it is comfortable to do so.

Right... if your goal is to cover ground quickly there are better kicks.

You're arguing a point that no one is making.