Cost of GUE/DIR training

[liuk3]

I am looking but can't find it. What gas mixtures does GUE-F cover?

EAN32 and 30/30

EDIT: GUE-F does not certify for use of 30/30

 

[ScubaGypsy]

The basis of this thread/discussion is comparable to that found in many professional fields. Is a degree from MIT worth the extra costs as compared to an education from a community college/state school? The MIT graduate typically has a superior in-depth theoretical framework that they are able to bring to the work place, however often the community college/state school graduate will bring increased real world work experiences into this same work place.

Five years plus out from graduation, it is often irrelevant where the professional was educated as by this point the professional is evaluated based upon what they are able to accomplish within the present work environment.

In my diving experience I have dove with GUE trained divers that are text book divers in trim/buoyancy, etc in a quarry or a spring. I've also dove with NSS-CDS/NACD full cave divers who demonstrate these same qualities in these same environments. However I've also seen these same divers out of sorts in real world off-shore North Atlantic dives where visibility is limited, water temperatures are cold and currents are high.

My take away from these experiences is that all of the education at the finest institutions does not necessarily replace the real world. However, many of the finest professionals and divers often have a combination of top education/training as well as real world experiences.

Allison, I wanted to continue my education with GUE. I believed that I would get a more rigorous and demanding class (and I did) and it would remain consistent with what I had already learned (which it did). It was only after having done the other class that I began to compare the two and ask myself whether the difference in cost was really reasonable.

But honestly, there comes a point in many things where it's hard to justify the increase in cost. A Timex tells time; a Rolex is much more expensive, and tells time; a Patek Philippe watch is insanely expensive, and tells time. Obviously, there are qualities other than timekeeping that cause people to decide to spend the money on the expensive models. I think that's true with GUE classes as well -- you DO get excellent and demanding instruction, no question about it. You're not going to get passed out of a GUE class with the kind of behavior that Cave Diver is bemoaning on the WTF thread. And it's very hard for me to evaluate my other class, because I'd already TAKEN Cave 2, so I had a bunch of information and practice over the topics already. Same with Peter -- he took a MUCH less intense Full Cave class, but he's done all his subsequent diving with highly trained people.

Five years down the line, it may matter a lot more who you dive with, and less who you took your classes from. I don't know.

 

[Rainer]

Since when does GUE-F cover 30/30? It certainly doesn't certify you for it. That used to be their Rec Triox class (now R3?).

Mine covered theory for nitrox (any mix) and the card reads 32%.

EAN32 and 30/30

 

[TSandM]

Well, Richard, in some cases, it's possible the person who didn't pass the original class learned something from it, and actually improved . . . but couldn't afford to take the expensive class over again?

There IS something wrong with shopping around to find an instructor who will pass you, when you aren't passing material. And BTW, I had this discussion with Dennis before I took my FC class. He wanted to be sure I wasn't just shopping for a card. I told him what the issues were in my Cave 2 class, and he designed the FC class I did around them, to make sure he tested both my situational awareness and, to the small degree possible, my ability to cope with flow. And I remembered what David had taught me, and I did much better. I was using my own gear, I wasn't sopping wet and cold, and I had good teammates, and all of that helped, too.

 

[ucfdiver]

The way I see it, if you want to be a GUE diver than save your money and take the class[es]. Otherwise contact one of the other organizations that taught the originators of GUE how to dive. Thats what I did and the training I recieved from both the Heinerths, who are no slouches, has served me just fine.

Casey, JJ, Todd, and a ton of other members (I believe including Tyler) were certified by Lloyd Bailey, not Paul. Either way, I think it's reasonable to say that neither of them are teaching even remotely close to DIR, nor close to what Lloyd taught. FWIW, if you watch the DIR2004 video, they mention training. George talks a lot about Parker Turner training him, and JJ doesn't mention a single thing, or give any credit to his instructor. I think that's a very professional way of stating that the knowledge was gained elsewhere.

I just think things have changed too much from back in 1989 when those guys were certified to draw the implied conclusion here.

 

[TSandM]

That's very true -- assuming that you're doing better by going to the guy who trained someone doesn't necessarily hold. In talking to one of my cave instructors, he made it very clear that the way he teaches and the kind of class he has constructed is based very heavily on the fact that he felt his original cave training did not leave him able either to avoid or to cope with serious problems.

 

[ScubaFeenD]

Since when does GUE-F cover 30/30? It certainly doesn't certify you for it. That used to be their Rec Triox class (now R3?).

Mine covered theory for nitrox (any mix) and the card reads 32%.

They mention 30/30 as one of the recreational gases and that it is the GUE std gas for recreational dives. Helium isnt covered beyond that at all (except for the parts where we are told how amazing it is).

 

[boulderjohn]

There is a danger in categorizing instructors based on experiences or reputations from too far into the past. There is a danger in judging a diver based upon his or her instruction.

In my first decade or so as a school teacher, I had a pretty good reputation, teaching in a very traditional approach. Then I learned some innovations that totally transformed my approach and made me much more effective. When still teaching in that second phase I would meet former students from my first phase and they would say how much they enjoyed my class, I felt like apologizing. Their experiences with me, even though positive, had little to do with the experiences my current students were getting.

Similarly, I went through the PADI instructional system and learned to teach skills the way I was taught to do them. I don't do anything like that now. If you took a class from me even two years ago, you have no idea what my classes look like now.

Similarly, as a diver, I don't look too much like the diver I was only a few years ago, and I don't look anything remotely like what I did coming out of my initial OW training.

 

[Spg01]

Do all these points also hold true if we were talking about UTD? Or are they a totally different animal?

 

[lamont]

EAN32 and 30/30

Personally, I think a DIRF Tech pass probably should cover the latter (probably a longer conversation there), but I don't believe it does.