Cost of GUE/DIR training

[ScubaFeenD]

Personally, I think a DIRF Tech pass probably should cover the latter (probably a longer conversation there), but I don't believe it does.

Do you mean that GUEF should cover rec trimix and then if you have a tech pass certify you to use it?

 

[Peter Guy]

Absolutely amazing and fascinating thread -- not for the purported content but for the underlying assumptions/beliefs of the posters.

a. "Fairness" is a definable concept -- I don't believe so thus there is no such thing as a "fair" price. And in something as boutique as Scuba Technical Training (and let's face it, Fundies is in the nature of technical training even though it is a "recreational" class), there is plenty of economic theory that says the MORE you charge for the training, the greater the perceived value, thus Fundies SHOULD BE priced substantially higher than other "recreational" classes.

b. Cards = training. I happen to agree with AG who told me "If you get the training, the card will come." Thus it may well make sense for someone who does NOT "pass" a GUE class but who, for reasons OTHER THAN THE TRAINING, needs a piece of plastic (i.e., the "I will let you dive here card") would take a different class to reach the goal desired. IF you have the training, does it matter what piece of plastic you have? Or, again, as another sage has said to me (Thank you John), "At this level, it is your buddies who keep you honest."

c. GUE owes it to the diving community to "spread the word." Not only no, but H*|| no. GUE (UTD, SDI, XYC) don't owe "the diving community" anything.

 

[lamont]

Do you mean that GUEF should cover rec trimix and then if you have a tech pass certify you to use it?

I mean that anyone who had a DIRF Tech pass should be able to do a few minutes of mandatory deco between 1/2 max depth and the surface, even if it isn't pretty and that's good enough to avoid getting hurt using 30/30 recreationally. Nobody with a DIRF Tech pass should be popping from 100 fsw or anything like that. And the GUE recreational EAN32 tables are aggressive precisely because GUE expect their recreational divers to be able to do some deco/safety stops.

So, given that they've got adequate skills to avoid getting hurt, why not give them the correct tool to use (30/30) to avoid narcosis -- particularly in some of the cold, dark, limited viz situations you can get into around here...

 

[boulderjohn]

Do all these points also hold true if we were talking about UTD? Or are they a totally different animal?

Sure.

All my experience in this area has been UTD. The courses are pretty expensive, but in my experience, they have to be. It all goes back to the economies of scale I was talking about earlier.

Our shop teaches both PADI and UTD. The PADI instruction is much cheaper for the student, but I am not sure the shop/instructor make out any better financially with the much more expensive UTD instruction. There are enough such students to keep our lone UTD instructor busy, but not enough to bring down the price on a volume basis.

My concern about the pricing would be the situations to which some posters have alluded (but I have not myself experienced) in which there are plenty of students paying a very high price. In that case, the instructor/shop would be doing very well. In that case, competition will eventually take care of that, but in the meantime it might be a bit unfair.

There is one other aspect of the pricing to which a poster Lynne) referred:

it's possible the person who didn't pass the original class learned something from it, and actually improved . . . but couldn't afford to take the expensive class over again?

In PADI instruction, students keep going on a class until they finish it. They don't fail it because they could not quite master a technique or two and then have to come back and take the whole class over again for the same fee. In most cases, there is no (or little) additional cost to the student for the extended time. Our UTD instruction generally follows the same path, with the only additional costs to the student for the additional instruction being the costs incurred for the diving itself.

Similarly, when I was taking my full cave course (NSS-CDS), I had to do an extra day because they instructor was not satisfied with my work on the day I had planned to be the last. (Fortunately, I had planned to be there anyway.) During those classes, two other students were working on their certification (on different days) with me. Neither was ready for certification, and they were planning to return some time in the future to continue. The instructor was taking notes on where they were in their training, and they would be going at it until they were proficient enough to pass.

Making a person complete an entire extremely expensive class over again because the student is a little short of passing is a very different policy.

 

[VooDooGasMan]

If you spend enough time on these forumns, you can have your own opion of what you think is the instructional information, is worth to you. It is easy to think time is cheap, or someones weekend, cause they have another job other than scuba, or the fact that the full time instructor has his whole life wrapped up on teaching classes.

Now the french cave Diver that recently had his fame to his name on a event that was running out of time.

Ask yourself ? What are your thoughts on depending on help from the surface ? Do you want to have that short time of thought on wether to live or make it to the surface on your dives ?

$$$$$$.$$ is a way of security in diving education that has some sort of accomplishment, not just your theory of how you think your diving level is at.

Many divers have more in watwer experience than they no what to do with and never even think of getting on these forumns for in formation, cause you need to actually do these dives at your own pace and progress yourself.

Happy Diving

 

[ScubaFeenD]

I mean that anyone who had a DIRF Tech pass should be able to do a few minutes of mandatory deco between 1/2 max depth and the surface, even if it isn't pretty and that's good enough to avoid getting hurt using 30/30 recreationally. Nobody with a DIRF Tech pass should be popping from 100 fsw or anything like that. And the GUE recreational EAN32 tables are aggressive precisely because GUE expect their recreational divers to be able to do some deco/safety stops.

So, given that they've got adequate skills to avoid getting hurt, why not give them the correct tool to use (30/30) to avoid narcosis -- particularly in some of the cold, dark, limited viz situations you can get into around here...

I agree and would support it. I can't wait to use 30/30 or some other trimix. I have a feeling once I learn trimix I will be disappointed to find that it isn't nearly complicated enough to keep it locked away until years of training is completed.

 

[lamont]

I agree and would support it. I can't wait to use 30/30 or some other trimix. I have a feeling once I learn trimix I will be disappointed to find that it isn't nearly complicated enough to keep it locked away until years of training.

Its just a gas. You breathe it. You get less narcosis, you get lower WOB, you get less gas weight swing. If you pop from a 30 min @ 100 fsw dive it'll suck harder than if you were on nitrox. So don't do that.

I don't really know what else there is to it.

RecTriox is sort of a Tech 0 course with introduction to bottom work and multiple failures, scenarios, etc. That'll of course make for an even safer diver using helium, but I'm not convinced that they're critical skills for helium. Particularly given the higher standards in the DIRF Tech pass than back when I took DIRF first, all the divers with that cert should be able to dive helium safely.

 

[boulderjohn]

I agree and would support it. I can't wait to use 30/30 or some other trimix. I have a feeling once I learn trimix I will be disappointed to find that it isn't nearly complicated enough to keep it locked away until years of training.

Different agencies have differing attitudes toward it, and I agree with those that introduce it sooner rather than later.

Most of the training involved in getting the certifications for differing mixes has little to do with diving the mixes themselves and a lot to do with mastering the skills necessary to be sure you can do a proper ascent from those dives under challenging conditions.

 

[gsk3]

I agree and would support it. I can't wait to use 30/30 or some other trimix. I have a feeling once I learn trimix I will be disappointed to find that it isn't nearly complicated enough to keep it locked away until years of training.

Seconded. Particularly when your Fundies instructor waxes rapsodic about how amazing helium is and how he likes using it starting at 80ft...and then you realize you need a >$2k class that certifies you to 170ft just to learn to use it. It's a bit nuts.

And yes, I realize that Rec3 exists and Rec2 is coming, but the price points of those make them not worth it to me for a significantly less future-proof cert and less rigorous training.

 

[liuk3]

Since when does GUE-F cover 30/30? It certainly doesn't certify you for it. That used to be their Rec Triox class (now R3?).

Mine covered theory for nitrox (any mix) and the card reads 32%.

My bad. You guys are right. I had remembered 30/30 being on the Fundamentals written exam, because I remember I got the question wrong. Fundamentals only covers the use of EAN32. Sorry for the confusion.