Could you do it?

[Cacia]

Well, I have been diving with divers who will intentionally take off down a wall in a downdraft at the end of the dive at 120 ft when everyone is starting to ascend. Someone will scurry off to "get" them.. By the end of the week, you just say to yourself "okay then...bye...you dope".

Seriously, once somebody keeps diving this pattern, you go through stages with them. First, you are willing to do more, then you are not willing to do anything not good for your own profile.

The truth is, you'll know what you'd do after it's happened.

you are right to an extent, but just like your training drills, you need to train your mind. A good example is a girl who says "oh, I could NEVER hit a kitty with my car" and she has a very good chance of being the one that veers off the road and kills herself on a tree. Divers can prepare themselves for certain actions by contemplating the variables. With road obstacles, you tell yourself "Just take it on", etc. With diving, I am square with the fact that there are situations I won't put myself in, nor do I want someone to die if I am out there being stupid. Because, sometimes I am doing something stupid. The only way I can retain that "right" is by acknowledging no one else is obligated to me. IF JB wants to help save me, then that's great. We like diving with people who have that mindset. You are on your own, if I can help and I want to...you are in luck. Don't COUNT on it though. COUNT on yourself and know that your decisions are your own, every foot you descend.

The best divers think this way, from what I have see. Because the thinking is not diluted.

IF your dive requires a team, that is a different story.

 

[H2Andy]

i think it will be a difficult choice ...

if there is no doubt in my mind that by helping that person i will die too, then no, why do it?

if there is a chance that by helping i'll die, i'll probably try my best to help (i say probably cause you never really know until the brown stuff hits the fan)

in other words, if i can think i can help despite the risk, i'll try to help. i hope.

 

[Gary D.]

Something you must not forget is that no matter how good of shape you are in, a truly panicked person can have super human strength. A little 90# weakling can gain control over a 300# weight lifter if you’re not careful.

We have gone over this before but there are times it is better to let the victim go unconscious before attempting a rescue.

You don't do anyone any good if you don't go home.

Gary D.

 

[String]

Im lucky in that so far ive never been involved in a really serious situation so cant say how id act. I THINK i know how i'd act but its never been tested.

The only minor incidents i've had have mainly involved chasing people who lost buoyancy and started rocketing (2 feet first, dry suit, 1 just yo-yo then rocket).

In the first 2 cases resulted in rapidly ascending but catching, correcting and stabilising the person and stopping the ascent.

In the final case a person lost buoyancy from a depth of 34m (115ft?) during the ascent. Was yo-yoing +/-5 meters all the way up and rapidly. Chased, grabbed, stabilised as before but when we got shallower there was on way on earth i could hold him down any more. Split second decision was do i ride with him to the surface or do i just let go. I let go.

He ascended quickly to the surface and out of view (vis 3m or so), i stopped and did my stops. Due to my previous days of diving and earlier ones i had mandatory deco by that point. Although we left the bottom as planned the saw tooth and up/downs had pushed it over the edge. The buddy had not dived that week and was first dive of the trip so substantially less loaded. Based on that i decided he'd be relatively fine on the surface whereas i was at a substantially higher risk.

Im convinced i made the right call but the 10 minis hanging below the SMB thinking "did he make the surface? Did he stay on the surface or sink back down?" was horrible. Was incredibly happy when i eventually surfaced to see him uninjured and fine on the boat.

Relatively minor incident but i suspect id react similar again although as others have said it may depend who the victim is - a close personal friend/family member may push back the line of acceptable risk and i wont know until i come across that situation. Hopefully though i never will.

 

[CBulla]

Right on Gary! I'm a bit with Ken to.

At some point I think I've told anyone I have done a boat dive with once we've covered our dive plan, that if they so choose to break the plan by doing something like 'freak out', grab sea life and suffer painful consequences then freak out, drop all their gear and try to blow a lung out of their ear before hitting the surface, etc., they are going to do so without assistance from me. If there is a problem or possibility of a problem, confusion or you just want to look at the sleeping Goliath's tongue while its mouth is open and you fit inside, communicate that to me.

Maybe its the EMT in me, but I'm not willing to be a victim myself if the rescue or assistance or body recovery is out of the scope of a safe zone.

Absolute first rule of thumb for being a rescuer is to not become a victim yourself. One of my very first EMT response calls demonstrated that very clearly. Had we not assessed the scene and realized the area that the victim was in was a storage shed that contained chlorine, acid, etc., and that he was unconscious and coughing 30' past the door (it had signs on the back of the partially opened door of what the building contained) we would have walked right in and all 3 of us would have been victims just like him.

Gary brings up a great point - sometimes its just better to let them go unconscious. At least then they stop being a danger to everyone in the immediate vicinity. Well, unless they are already that way... then its up to you.. is it safe to retrieve this person? What danger exists to me by doing this rescue?

Then again you can bear hug the poor person till they calm down...face to face... let them see your eyes.

 

[cummings66]

I can speak from experience. I dive with anybody who wants to dive that I know will not kill me on purpose.

So, in my case I had a boat instabuddy who knew during my briefing what my mod was etc. I only knew him for a bit predive, he seemed ok at that point. I can't tell you why but I risked toxing to save him, he went so far past my mod that I shiver to think of it. I think there is a point I would have said I gave it my best, I know I was close to it.

I knew from the start I was risking my life to save him, I monitored my depth and checked off the we're passing mod, we're passing contingency, we're getting deep, so far no symptoms, keep fingers crossed because nobody's going to save me. I got to the point where I asked myself how much farther I was going to take it. After the dive I can't say what I thought of this buddy, not nice.

There was a chance to save him so I had to try. I did and got lucky to boot.

For me it's not written in concrete, there must exist a chance my buddy will come out of it fine. I'm not going to risk my life to save a body.

I think you have the pro's and amateurs. I know what not to do, but within reason I'll make the attempt. There's no way I'd give up without trying.

 

[gangrel441]

It does no one, including the victim, any good to have a second potential victim in the scenereo. If you are positive you can either a) help the person in distress or b) attempt to do so while putting yourself at little risk, then the decision should be to help. Example of the diver on the 7 ft hose bolting for the surface...if the option is there to hold on to both of his legs to keep him from kicking, you may have a good chance of stopping him. If he is OOA, he is not likely to be able to inflate his BCD/wing, so kicking is the main means of propulsion he has to the surface. If you can't arrest him by holding his legs, you could always go for the tried and true punch in the gut. Unpleasant, but may save his life. However, if you find there is no way to bring him under control and you are going along for the ride, you gotta' cut him loose. No two ways about it. No matter how much you care about the person, you won't do him or her any good if you are sitting on the surface bent to hell right next to him or her. Subtracting a rescuer and dividing the resources of the remaining rescuers is not the right way to go. Sounds harsh, and people have a hard time with this one, but no matter how much you care about the person you are trying to rescue, the best chance you can give them is to not get hurt yourself.

 

[ArcticDiver]

This has been discussed many times with much the same range of replies that boil down to: "It depends".

First, when one brings up a topic such as this they should take care not to use such words as "blithely". That word connotes a casual disregard for the seriousness of the situation. Very few people are casual about an emergency situation.

There is no universally correct answer to the situation you raise. To say that someone who comes up with a different decision than you is wrong, or is making a casual decision is doing them a disservice.

I think most people, me included, are going to do the best we can based on our risk analysis at the time. It will be a field situation without the luxury of being able to consult with others. A decision will have to be made Right Now.

But the bottom line to me is:
I am called to risk my life; not sacrifice it recklessly. If the scenario is as you posit then to follow the panicked person to the surface is a reckless act according to my training and my analysis. That reckless act may result in more severe injury or even death to both. On the other hand letting the person go and then following them up using as rapid an ascent as is safe lets me be able to do what I can for the other person.

As has been posted many times; others may make different decisions based on their different analysis of the situation. I'll not criticize as long as they did make a decision and not let things happen with no action on their part.

 

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

I think when people decide to get involved in any rescue on land or sea, they first decide if they will come out alive and then proceed. In the case the Pudget Sound diver who did not make it, I think it would be reasonable to conclude that he thought he could pull it off and get the guy off the bottom and then at worst case do a CESA. I don't honestly think he thought, ok I am going go down and die with this guy. I think it would be reasonable to conclude he felt he could make it happen.

Recently, I have taken some training provided by FEMA at the local level for CERT. The more training I get the more I understand how to calculate real risk and how to deal with an emergency and make a rational decision. I now understand that how I most likely I would have responded before my additional training would have put myself in greater danger.

I would like to think that I would be both willing and able to help anyone at anytime. I would also like to think that as I continue to get training and learn when I can realistically help and and be wise enough to know when I can't. I don't think you really know until the moment happens.

During my CERT training, the guy who taught it is on the rescue dive team. They got a call one afternoon after we had some local flooding and some boys were playing near a culvert. The bank caved in and one boy fell into the swift water and went into the culvert and was trapped below. He said it was the hardest thing to stand by with his dive gear and tell the crying mother no that they could not go down for the boy until the water receded. The water was too swift and too muddy and a diver could not make it back out.

It is my belief that the more training and experience that you have, the better you will be able to avoid danger in the first place or respond in the right manner should it come--that may or may not mean helping. I would like to think that I could help anyone at anytime without a second thought, but that just might not be reality, I truely might not be able to help.

That being said, I would have a really hard time if I wasn't able to help someone.

 

[lamont]

I'm one who would yank my reg from someone's mouth before we surfaced if I couldn't stop them. I would go up after them but to avoid the bends I would do it. How would you feel if you both got to the surface with the bends and you could do nothing to save the other diver? That's why they teach in Resue not to create two victims. The best chance you have to save someone is to be in better shape than they are in.

How guilty would you feel if you got bent and the other diver did not?

EDIT: I do agree that if it were my family member my brain might say "Let them go" but my heart would be saying different. I would still try to do a stop just under them and monitor how they were doing. If they were drowning, I would definitely save them.

If you are recreationally diving, your chances of getting bent are low. And if you do get bent you are likely to get fatigued first, followed by joint pain or skin bends long before you get type 2 DCS.

I can't believe that you would pull a reg out of someone's mouth rather than do a rapid ascent with them to the surface.

I'm prepared to blow off 20 mins of mandatory O2 deco at my 20 foot stop if my buddy toxes. I'm likely to take a type 1 hit to the joints and need to go to the recompression chamber, but I'm prepared to do that. If my buddy has a runaway inflator on deco I'm going after them, dragging them back down to depth and completing deco. Where it gets to the point where I'm not willing to risk DCS is if my buddy has a CVA at the end of a 240 fsw dive right before starting deco. I still need to do my deep stops and hand his body off to the support divers. I won't skip the deep stops on a significant dive.

Recreational divers should stop agonizing over pulling regs out of people's mouths -- exhale to the surface and go onto O2 and hit the chamber if you have any symptoms. Stop being so terrified of DCS that you'll kill someone else rather than running the slightest risk of DCS.