Creation vs. Evolution

[Bryan]

There has to be something there. I've done a few searches and found "claptrap" to a very commonly used term coming from the science side of the discussion, so I must have "caught it" and then "spread it."

Typhoid Thas?

 

[Uncle Pug]

ok, then call it a miracle and let's be done with it

Personally, I don't think the star was a miracle (that is to say, a supernatural intervention apart from and contrary to natural physical laws.)

That isn't to say the event didn't involve the miraculous. To me the miraculous was not the event but the fulfillment of prophecy. It is prophecy and its fulfillment that eludes *scientific* explanation. I think that the star itself is easily explained.

so the star hovered over Bethlehem while the Magi got there? impossible.
<snip>
a star can't come to a rest over any place (town or building). it's impossible.

As astronomers well studied in the overall static nature of the star field, the Magi were keenly tuned to observing any variance from that *picture.*

To the Magi it wasn't a matter of the star *stopping* above a certain location on the earth's surface. They were looking for signatory events and well aware that Jupiter was just entering retrograde on Dec 25th 2BC. This was significant to them since it was the double retrograde and triple conjunction of Jupiter and Regulus that had started them on the journey months before.

Instead of reading into Matthew's account that the star move ahead of them leading the way and then stopped directly over a town or building, look at it as the Magi would have and also as Matthew (not an astronomer) hearing of the story years later would have recounted it. It is now possible for us using astronomical software to see what they saw and thus understand what Matthew meant in writing what he did.

The Magi, as astronomers, did not look at the movement of the stars differently than an astronomer would today. The slow movement of the stars across the sky due to the earth's rotation wasn't of concern. What was of concern was relative motion... specifically in this case Jupiter's relative motion across the field of *immovable* stars. This movement was not something seen as occurring in a matter of hours but rather days and months.

The significant thing (sign event) to the Magi was that Jupiter was now seen in the Southern sky and had just entered retrograde... that is, it had *stopped* moving relative to the star field. This coincided with the directions they were given as to Messiah's location: Bethlehem... 5 miles South of Jerusalem. BTW: for the interested reader... this was no longer a manger scene. Jesus was most likely a toddler by this time and living in a dwelling.

can you give me a list of your top five items of evidence that Jesus lived, died, and rose again?

I will give you two: one objective and one subjective.

1. The fulfillment of Scripture concerning Him: overt prophecy, veiled prophecy and typological prophecy.

2. Personal fulfillment as a result of faith in Him: answered prayer, purposeful life and a peace that passes human understanding.

 

[AXL72]

Your making a lot of assumptions. How do you know that God can't cross a language of cultural barrier? How do you know the only way God can cross the pond is in a boat? Are you assuming since Jesus wasn't a sailor, he couldn't cross an ocean? How do you know that people in other cultures went to hell? Are you the judge? Can you back this claim with scientific evidence?

You are placing human limitations on God and this is a fundamental mistake.

lmao, are you serious? Ha ha, very funny, as if you did not know that christianity did not make it to the Mayans and other western civilizations until late in the 15th century AD had passed.

omfg, you did reply with a straight face...koodos to you, mate! OK, get serious, now.

 

[H2Andy]

You haven't replied to my question about asking about what was wrong with the historicity and astronomical model put forth in the article. If it's "claptrap" (I believe this thread has more occurences of the word "claptrap" than any other thread ever).

holy cow, man ... how many times do i have to explain this to you?

i'll try one last time:

1. read what the Bible says about the star (it's only one verse)

2. think about what the start did according to the Bible.

3. read the article.

4. ask yourself: did this guy really explain what the Bible says the star did?

the answer is no.

all the crap he talks about is mush. it doesn't explain how a star can stop and start moving at will, and come to rest above where Jesus lay.

the only way to explain that is through the supernatural.

except this guy doesn't want to do that. he wants to come up with a "logical,"
"scientific" way to explain the impossible.

he can't.

thus, his article is claptrap

call it a miracle, let's go home, and let's stop trying to dress this 2,000 year old story up to look like science, which it isn't

 

[H2Andy]

Instead of reading into Matthew's account that the star move ahead of them leading the way and then stopped directly over a town or building

oh, ok... so Matthew really says:

And the Magi consulted their charts and noted that the star pointed to the SW of Jerusalem, and they went that way to Bethlehem, and once there, asked "Where is the King of the Jews?" and since everybody knew that was Jesus, the son of Mary, they pointed the Magi to the right house.

inconveniently for you, here's what the Bible actually says:

Matthew 2:9 -- "...and lo, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came to rest over the place where the child was."

who is reading into Matthew's account things that are not there? it's not me, Pug

1. The fulfillment of Scripture concerning Him: overt prophecy, veiled prophecy and typological prophecy.

2. Personal fulfillment as a result of faith in Him: answered prayer, purposeful life and a peace that passes human understanding.

so that's your proof?

that's not proof. that's just your beliefs

again, you fail to give me any concrete proof of your position (btw, you can't)

 

[Midnight Star]

all the crap he talks about is mush. it doesn't explain how a star can stop and start, and come to rest above where Jesus lay.

Actually, it was the Starship Enterprise looking for the Borg. If you listen carefully, as it passes overhead you can here...

...

Khhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!
Khhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!

...

The sighting was recorded in stone, later found and documented in "Chariots of the Gods" - temporal mechanics came full circle.

-----

Mike.

 

[AXL72]

Me too! My favorite was "Jungle Love"

-----

Mike.

Hey, Does anybody know if the Steve Miller Band is writing a song called, "Our tour bus driver dumped sewage on your face from our tour bus in Chicago and got caught"?

 

[Midnight Star]

No, that was actually a remake titled "Splish Splash, guess who's taking a bath!"

-----

Mike.

 

[ams511]

Sometimes it is interesting to look at page 1 of a thread and see how it strayed at page 377. How does claptrap, the star of Bethelem, the Starship Enterprise, and the Steve Miller Band fit into the original discussion? Forget it, I don't want to know.

 

[AXL72]

No, that was actually a remake titled "Splish Splash, guess who's taking a bath!"

-----

Mike.

I love the indifference and lack of concern, there. How many sewage baths have you taken, MIke?

Wait, do not tell me. I do not want to know about any of your golden showers...nevermind :freak: