Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[Airleron]

Maybe the father or the family should redirect their efforts. They should contact the NSS-CDS and NACD and offer thier time to bring awareness to others about the dangers.
When somone creates an updated version of A Deceptively Way To Die, maybe the family can be a part of it.

Only if the family comes to realize that it was their son, and to a lesser extent, their grandsons fault for the outcome. If they continue to place blame for this accident everywhere else, such as The site itself, they will never be a part of something like this.


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[boulderjohn]

The Tampa Bay article says,

"Spivey tried to reassure Brooks that he was staying in Eagle Nest's entrance room — a large cavern known as the Ballroom that reaches depths of about 200 feet — and not heading into the narrower tunnels. The Ballroom is still a dangerous place for a diver who hasn't had professional cave training, Brooks said."

In the picture on a previous page, the father appears to be wearing a pigtail with cookies on it. Can anyone tell me a use for cookies in the ballroom?

14 minutes at 233 feet gives an hour total ascent time on air (V-Planner set on +2)

Maybe they spent 4 minutes at depth and 10 minutes looking for a lost line. Who knows ?

Or maybe they were using Suuntos.

In that picture, the father appears to be wearing a Nitek3 computer. I am not familiar with it myself, but I believe it is an older model 3 gas computer that can do decompression with multiple gases, none of them including helium. They both appear to be also wearing wrist computers of a basic puck design that I do not recognize.

 

[00wabbit]

This is in the works.

where, who, what can I do to help?

 

[PfcAJ]

In the picture on a previous page, the father appears to be wearing a pigtail with cookies on it. Can anyone tell me a use for cookies in the ballroom?

There is an upstream/downstream T at the top of the debris cone. Its been so long since I've been there that I can't describe exactly how the lines are laid out, but the line from OW drops down to the mound, and one line goes left, one goes right. I could understand someone putting a cookie there.

But I really think it was just part of the cave diver costume the guy was wearing.

 

[gianaameri]

How do you propose to do that without excluding others? It's in an unstaffed remote location. Trying to staff it raises questions of by whom, what type, who dictates who can & can't get in, how is this regulated, and how is it paid for? And the regulators will try to cover their butts liability-wise since eventually someone will die anyway, so the regulatory burden will grow, and so on. Eventually someone in power will decide it's too troublesome, expensive & risky & shut it down for everybody.

Richard.

That is why a web-based "license" system as I described in my earlier post to access the cave ought to be put in place by organizations like NSS-CDS and the NACD and others.

Anyone seen accessing the cave without the "license" (in this case S. did not make it a secret he wanted to cave dive and borrow gear prior to obtaining training and "staying in Eagle Nest's entrance room"...) can then be discouraged including by the authorities and formally denied right of way over the land leading to the cave.

 

[Sevenrider860]

An individual who displayed a pattern of ignoring rules and has a history of breaking laws goes and gets himself and his son killed. For many the solution seems to be to implement more rules and laws. Fortunately it looks like the State does not want to burden itself with trying to stop every idiot who decides the rules don't apply to them, they are only there for others to follow.

"There are no plans to close it at this time," said Gary Morse of the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, which manages the state-owned land. "That discussion has taken place over a period of years, and the decision was made to leave the area open to those who choose to use it but with the caution that only certified, experienced divers should attempt to enter the cave system."

Florida has a lot of water. Even if EN was closed to Mr. Spivey, I am sure he would have found somewhere else to take risks and put his uncertified son in danger.

 

[gianaameri]

An individual who displayed a pattern of ignoring rules and has a history of breaking laws goes and gets himself and his son killed. For many the solution seems to be to implement more rules and laws. Fortunately it looks like the State does not want to burden itself with trying to stop every idiot who decides the rules don't apply to them, they are only there for others to follow.

"There are no plans to close it at this time," said Gary Morse of the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, which manages the state-owned land. "That discussion has taken place over a period of years, and the decision was made to leave the area open to those who choose to use it but with the caution that only certified, experienced divers should attempt to enter the cave system."

Florida has a lot of water. Even if EN was closed to Mr. Spivey, I am sure he would have found somewhere else to take risks and put his uncertified son in danger.

People who truly actively cave dive know at least one or two Mr. Spivey.

I know two of them and they are my friends, but there are more.

They are both entirely convinced that they do not need any cave training and what they do is right.

One of them is a guide. He guides cave divers (some trained, some not so trained like him). He does blind jumps. The cave trained diver who complain he says they are no good because "they get nervous in a cave." The guy does bloody blind jumps in a cave guiding people who do not know the cave and the trained cave divers he guides "get nervous" and he thinks it is their fault for the trained cave divers getting nervous during his guided cave dive!!!

My other friend (also really really short of money like Mr. Spivey) wants to dive with me and I keep on telling him to get cave trained first (he already dives caves and in his mind he is fully competent of course!). He brings over equipment for me to check and get my advise. Once he brought his out-of-date tanks to ask what I thought about the quality of the air content (after the dive shop already told him it was BAD...). I smelled it and told him it really stank and not to use it. I told him "let us empty a tank and open one up and we can see what is inside..." (expecting a good coat of oil at the bottom to the very least), and he made an excuse and drove off with his tanks not to waste the "fill." Then, he hooks up with somebody else I was scheduled to dive with and shows up at the cave to go diving...

There is a whole group of people who fit this profile and regularly dive caves (and they are incredibly persistent at doing what it is they believe they are competent to do).

Granted that Darwin will eventually take care of them, they still pose problems:

1. They are a public danger when they manage to get themselves in a cave with other divers (i.e. a danger to me, for example, when I am already in the cave).
2. They do bring novice divers in a cave (not just one, but a bunch, and in this sad case a minor son) who perceive them to be "competetent" (a public danger to me and others again... and damage the cave so Cave Conservation goes down the drain)
3. When Darwin takes care of them, then we have to deal with the consequences (recovery, investigation, lawsuits, caves being blamed and risk getting closed...).

So, leaving it to Darwin is not the optimal solution (plus in some cases they are not just strangers, but friends, and really good and nice people, who seem, however, incapable of understanding they lack competence not knowing what it is that they do not know...).

NSS-CDS, NACD, Cave Atlas... do good and talk a lot on the internet (their websites) about Cave Conservation and Cave Safety, but this is not enough to stop the Mr. Spivey of the world (actually, for them the internet and internet forums are the perfect source of information... in many cases a pretty poor one).

I found that the "licensing" system I described is helping to push the Mr. Spivey types either out of the caves I am diving or push them towards getting trained/qualifications (and the insurance which comes with it).

Short of that, history will repeat itself (as this is not the first time untrained divers enter caves and die in them), and we will have the same, and many have been already had in the past, discussions we are having on this thread.

My morning ramblings!

 

[Phil_C]

gianaameri - you raise some interesting points to my mind, but also open up a Catch 22.

First, I don't cave dive, I never had, and realistically probably never will. Although I have to admit I would love to come to Florida, do a cavern and cave course and have a look at some, but in reality that is unlikely to happen. Work, geographic location, finances, family, age and so on isn't really on my side anymore

The only overheads I enter are occasional wrecks, and I have been formally trained to know my limits and do that safely.

Now for the Catch 22 - I mentioned earlier, and you have repeated above "you don't know, what you don't know".

I read very widely about diving, I have read books and have a wide range from on gas blending, decompression science, diving physiological/medical adaptations in mammals, surface supplied diving to other obscure text books and I have looked for information on cave diving from time to time, and I have imported books from the NSS on the subject.

However other than basic 'course outlines' I have not been able to find very much detail information on the required knowledge and skill sets and competence levels needed to dive caves safely. If these were more widely available then there would be the opportunity for some of these people who do not take courses to at least have an idea of what they don't know. It may encourage some to go down the route of taking a formal course to get the skills, and encourage others who do not take a course to at least make sure they have understood the skill sets and techniques they need. OK I know and accept others will just look at it and it will re-enforce their self opinion that they don't need a course, but they wouldn't have taken a course anyway!

If this leads to some people taking courses that wouldn't have done so otherwise, and some others gaining the skills by other means then it will contribute to safety in caves.

It will never change the mind of the Spivey's of this world, but it might help some, and prevent some accidents.

I don't want to take away from the livelihoods of people who teach cave diving, or discourage people from getting proper training, but if the information was more widely available it might help fill a gap in letting people know what they need to know.

Phil.

 

[fbk]

However other than basic 'course outlines' I have not been able to find very much detail information on the required knowledge and skill sets and competence levels needed to dive caves safely

I recently did my TDI full cave course... the TDI manuals are all available for purchase online for about $30, I bought mine well in advance of the course and read it cover to cover. I'm not advocating it whatsoever, but if I was that way inclined and couldn't afford the course, I'd say that the manuals cover most of what you need to know in order to not die. In this case it is arguable whether it would have made any difference.. if you aren't going to follow "the rules" enough to complete a course why follow what's contained in a book.

 

[gianaameri]

gianaameri - you raise some interesting points to my mind, but also open up a Catch 22.

First, I don't cave dive, I never had, and realistically probably never will. Although I have to admit I would love to come to Florida, do a cavern and cave course and have a look at some, but in reality that is unlikely to happen. Work, geographic location, finances, family, age and so on isn't really on my side anymore

The only overheads I enter are occasional wrecks, and I have been formally trained to know my limits and do that safely.

Now for the Catch 22 - I mentioned earlier, and you have repeated above "you don't know, what you don't know".

I read very widely about diving, I have read books and have a wide range from on gas blending, decompression science, diving physiological/medical adaptations in mammals, surface supplied diving to other obscure text books and I have looked for information on cave diving from time to time, and I have imported books from the NSS on the subject.

However other than basic 'course outlines' I have not been able to find very much detail information on the required knowledge and skill sets and competence levels needed to dive caves safely. If these were more widely available then there would be the opportunity for some of these people who do not take courses to at least have an idea of what they don't know. It may encourage some to go down the route of taking a formal course to get the skills, and encourage others who do not take a course to at least make sure they have understood the skill sets and techniques they need. OK I know and accept others will just look at it and it will re-enforce their self opinion that they don't need a course, but they wouldn't have taken a course anyway!

If this leads to some people taking courses that wouldn't have done so otherwise, and some others gaining the skills by other means then it will contribute to safety in caves.

It will never change the mind of the Spivey's of this world, but it might help some, and prevent some accidents.

I don't want to take away from the livelihoods of people who teach cave diving, or discourage people from getting proper training, but if the information was more widely available it might help fill a gap in letting people know what they need to know.

Phil.

There are a lot of good books on cave diving.

The first which come to mind are the NSS-CDS Cave Diving Manual and the UK CDG Cave Manual (the latter more up-to-date and giving a different perspective from the U.S. style approach of cave diving)... and of course Sheck's books are a must.

The thing is though that the Spiveys I know would not be interested in the first place reading those books (even if they were translated in their own language, and because they do not know English they can't read them anyway).

Now, even if they read them, it is almost pointless because cave diving is an activity (like sailing, dynamic shooting, hunting...) which you can only learn to perform safely by doing it (a good theoretical background being a pre-requisite to doing).

This means being trained by a competent instructor in the actual cave (after dry runs on land) and possibly simulating/provoking the real conditions you may actually be encountering in the cave at some point in time.

My instructor took it a bit to the extreme but seriously entangled me in a cave line (no way getting undone without cutting the line) and then silted up the place completely (no vis. whatsoever... and I was on rebreather)... after one hour of doing it wrong I begged him to untangle me because I was getting hypothermic (by lack of moving/finning) trying to untangle myself instead of cutting the bloody line as quickly as possible (using a particular/proper technique)... lesson learnt though!

So, there is books which can be bought, and good ones, but there is no substitute for "doing" under controlled/supervised conditions (i.e. pay a good instructor).

The Spiveys won't do that (nature did code their DNA differently), which leaves us two options, a. stay clear of them, or b. create a system like "licensing" which controls them (and in some cases forces them in the right direction which is obtaining formal training, or to the very least keeps them away from us).

Cavern training is a good start, but almost pointless in itself, as only Full Cave training will give you the basics - and that is just the basics insofar from then on you are on the path of self-learning.