DIR-F Tokyo, Thanks and Kudos...

[Mar Scuba]

Shout me those beers and I'll lighten up.

The problem with most gear configurations is no one ever stops to think about WHY they do it that way. They do as they are taught but never question the WHY.

I don't know what possible reason your IANTD instructor would have a diver use a 6 foot hose on the octo.

In the course, we asked all sorts of WHY questions about DIR and the underlying philosophy. That was also one of the great benefits of the course.

 

[Kim]

Don't worry - when I eventually make it up to Tokyo I'll shout you a few beers - or you can come for a dive here!
As far as IANTD standards are concerned - I took this course 4 years ago. All divers then (and still) were taught to go for the yellow reg if they needed to share, so which reg an OOA diver tries to get is not IMO a forgone conclusion - many will follow their training and go for the yellow one, where they have been taught to find it. This is especially true when you dive with a regular buddy and practice S-drills like that. As I said earlier, the DIR concept of the long hose on the primary, with a bungied second also has merit. However, it needs people to re-train themselves to the new situation, i.e. go for the primary. This then needs to be practiced and it only become truly effective when all divers do it that way (which at present they don't). The vast majority of divers today still think they should grab the yellow octo - so it makes some sense to have the long hose on that reg. In a single file overhead situation it doesn't matter - if you are leading, you'll have to pass back - if you are following, you'll have to pass forward.
As to hose lengths - that's always been more of a matter of size and personal preference - which length someone finds easiest to stow. DIR standards now dictate 7 foot for overheads - four years ago most people used 6 foot (and 4 years ago hardly anyone used a long hose anyway!!) As I only dive overheads with my wife, and we trained with 6 foot and have always used the same setup it's never been a problem, we can happily follow each other along a line using the long hose. If I was going to buy a new hose today, I'd probably get a 7 footer. Anyway if I want to swap it around (which I am considering), I'll have to get a shorter hose for the bungied backup.

 

[jagfish]

The vast majority of divers today still think they should grab the yellow octo - so it makes some sense to have the long hose on that reg.

I only know a few, but of the "long hose" divers I know and have met, neither of their regs are yellow (me included).

If and OOA diver swims up to me looking for yellow air, he's got a disappointment serious ahead!

 

[Mar Scuba]

Plus we all know that the OOA diver is going to swim right up and pull the reg that he knows is going to provide air...the one in your mouth making bubbles!

Don't think I'll make it down that way, we're all waiting in Tokyo for you!

 

[Kim]

I only know a few, but of the "long hose" divers I know and have met, neither of their regs are yellow (me included).

If and OOA diver swims up to me looking for yellow air, he's got a disappointment serious ahead!

Which exactly illustrates my point! Most divers ARE still taught to go for the 'yellow' air - if they don't see it they're going to get confused and stressed. Then I agree, they'll probably try to grab the one they can see from your mouth! It's still the case though that if you buy a new octo, it's yellow - in line with the training that people are still getting.
If I swop my hoses around then for it to make any sense I'd have to change the faceplate as well. If I leave my octo yellow and bungie it round my neck I'd stand a good chance of being strangled with my own bungie cord! :11:
The DIR system makes sense, I agree, but for it to be safe ALL divers need to be taught which reg to go for - something that hasn't happened yet. I feel it's a presumption that all divers who go OOA are immediately so stressed they completely forget everything they have been taught and make a panick stricken grab. Sure, some will - but most won't. The situation that is beginning to happen is only going to make for confusion, with some people thinking they should behave one way - while others behave the opposite way. Not good! :11: As far as I know GUE is the only agency training divers to go for the primary at this moment.

 

[jagfish]

Yeah
Probably why as I understand it, DIR divers tend to dive with other DIR divers. That way, they all know the procedure and what to do under a variety of circumstances.

As for which octo to grab for. You've probably seen the plethora of "air2" type rigs out there. Which reg is an OOA buddy to grab for in that instance? I believe that would be the primary as well.

Anyway, I don't think OOA emergencies happen enough to be statistical, but as I recall, most accounts I have heard of involve the OOA diver grabbing for the reg in their buddy's mouth...regardless of color.

JAG

 

[Kim]

Personally I think it's a moot arguement. I've never seen an OOA diver - and barring a tank blow out (also never seen - didn't really hear about, except in theory) - it should never happen. If my buddy, (normally my wife) ever had a tank go I'd have a back up reg in front of her face probably before she realized what had happened - I'd see the bubbles while she was still wondering WTF. If she or anyone else ran their tank down at depth so that they weren't going to make it back up on their own, again - I'd know, and be ready. Isn't that what a buddy is for???

I agree that because of the different procedures involved DIR tends to stick with DIR. I also normally only dive with people that share the same procedures as me - it makes sense. It's a very good idea to check those procedures in pre-dive planning when you hit the water with someone new - it's good to be on the same page, whatever that page is.

As far as the statistics I think that you are correct - OOA doesn't really happen often. Most accidents I've heard about come from too fast ascents - and that I have seen - and on several occasions have forcibly grabbed someone and dumped BCD air to pull them back down. That said, that's what I try very hard to impress on a new buddy that I don't expect to see - or that their tank is at 20bar at 25 meters.
Actually the only other person right now that I dive with except my wife is a Japanese JUDF instructor. He doesn't even have an octopus - probably why JUDF still requires old school buddy breathing skills!!!

 

[Mar Scuba]

KimLeece, I suppose you don't dive frequently with divers that you don't know, but one of my DMs says that he gets his share of OOA divers, even with careful monitoring of their air. I have donated a few times, too.

Part of my briefing before a dive includes safety information such as what to do in an OOA situation including hand signals, and the procedure which is different depending on the divers equipment. If they are getting the alternate from me, I donate the primary and go to my bungee backup. For them, they normally have the standard yellow octo or maybe even the AIR2.

Jagfish, did you see Marc's regs? They are kind of yellow and green (nitrox). I also saw a DIR diver the other day with a yellow backup. He had a black faceplate on order.

A mute arguement? What happens when the OOA diver rips the reg out of your mouth and your octo is dragging behind on yer 6 foot hose?

The reason why we plan for contingencies is that they will happen when we are least prepared, and thus our training must kick in or we will end up dead, bent, or embolized.

It may seem that I have a hard attitude, but in this business, there is no second chance. One screw up and someone can end up hurt or dead.

 

[Titan]

One little course and they've all gone fundamentalist !!!

I'm with KimLeece here, Lighten up guys. Matt sold me most of my "DIR" gear, but it was over a year afterwards that I saw him dive backplate and wings himself. Like Matt and KimLeece I subscribe to the spirit of DIR but not the religion. Gently educate me over a pint or two if you will, but otherwise turn down the volume.

Titan

 

[Mar Scuba]

Well, I think that Thomas, Jagfish, myself, et. al. are really subscribers to the "holistic" (MHK's words) approach of the DIR philosophy.

And, I would also comment that it was a year before Titan saw me using the long hose, although I was diving the backplate/harness/wing kit for a long time before that.

I'm an advocate of a "kindler, gentler" DIR philosophy, but perhaps for some reason the offhand way that KimLeece writes in his posts sets me off and makes me want to set the record straight.

Dog's Bullocks?

Cheers,