Dispelling scubaboard myths (Part 1: It is the instructor not the agency)

[DevonDiver]

While I don't think any single rating on a "ratemyprofessor" type site is worth anything. I do believe that the aggregate rating is useful.

Any such site would have to be very carefully constructed - particularly in respect to the specificity of questions asked.

The reason I say this is because the common fallback for shoddy dive educators is to become 'entertainers'.

I see glowing reviews and recommendations all the time for very low-standard dive operations/instructors.

Why? Because people were well entertained on their courses. It's wasn't education, it was merely a 'fun experience'. And that's how, in ignorance, students rate the instructor.

Let me tell you of the instructor (now Course Director) who managed to pit two open water students into a chamber in 12 months (yes, really..) because he'd take them drinking every night.. and used to 'entertain' them by getting them to do loop-the-loops on their safety stops.. Nonetheless, he was hugely popular and well awarded by his agency..

Let me tell you about instructors who were "so sensitive and understanding", which actually meant they just glossed over any skill standards that the student had problems with...

Let me tell you of the dire sausage factory schools in SEAsia that churn out 8 bottom-churning rototilers, per instructor, every 2 days.... but win the highest agency awards... and whose drunken, stoned millennial backpacker clientele rate purely based on "what an awesome, crazy time they had"..

Let me tell you of a generation of bum instructors who dole out cards to woefully incompetent students... and appease them by telling them "you're a great diver and did amazingly... but obviously it's normal you need to get more experience, or do a PPB course.. before you can expect to have reliable buoyancy control.."

The industry has become adept at blowing smoke up student's asses, blame-shifting and substituting education for entertainment.

And that's now become a student expectation... it's become acceptable and expected... It's the norm.

Sometimes I'm inclined to think that the amount of praise received by an instructor, especially in respect to agency 'awards', but also student recommendations, cam be inversely proportional to the ethics, diligence and standards they actually apply in training their students.

And for an honest, ethical, educator that actually (God forbid!) maintains high standards, expects hard work and focus.. challenges and coaches their students to perform better... and dares to fail students or holds them back in training? They'll get complaints a-plenty...

 

[KevinNM]

And for an honest, ethical, educator that actually (God forbid!) maintains high standards, expects hard work and focus.. challenges and coaches their students to perform better... and dares to fail students or holds them back in training? They'll get complaints a-plenty..

Maybe it is. but once upon a time I went back and looked up one of my college professors in one of the "rate my professors" sites, about the time he retired. He was a very good teacher but a hard grader who gave fairly evil tests (example "which of this answers is the least wrong?"). He also was a nationally famous expert. His class was one of the most interesting I took. Anyhow the reviews generally accorded with my experience.

So it might work. Not sure.

But the people who show up for a groupon OW class and the people who show up for a GUE fundamentals course have very different objectives and expectations as to what kind of experience they are going to get, but I would expect that could be handled.

 

[DevonDiver]

But the people who show up for a groupon OW class and the people who show up for a GUE fundamentals course have very different objectives and expectations as to what kind of experience they are going to get,....

And how do those numbers break down proportionally..?

And how would that effect ratings?

I understand that in an academic context, good professors should get good ratings.. because there's gratitude for being pushed hard to attain desirable pass marks in exams. In hindsight, at least..

Conversely, bad educators.. in hindsight..won't receive glowing reviews..

The same is true in sports performance .. capable trainers/coaches/educators (and those are different roles) can be acknowledged based on tangible results delivered..

But what in mass-market scuba?

An industry where "everyone passes" and "everyone does great"..... and "it's normal not to comfortable after training"... we see that incompetence has become an accepted expectation.

So where's the motivation or inclination for anyone to actually value a truly capable dive educator?

The value of a good dive educator only becomes apparent when the student reaches a level where they can self-assess their performance and set more ambitious expectations.

The analogy between diving education and academic education falls short...

 

[Bobby]

So what would be the questions to ask or what to look for? I have a son who wants to get certified. We have a choice of four dive shops.

IMHO, your best option is to find a community college or college that you can take your son to for OW classes. Most won't allow him to take a class unless he is a registered student however a few will. The great thing about taking OW at a school is that an entire semester is devoted to teaching.

Most OW today is taught in a few days, that includes confined and OW. I worked briefly in a shop that pushed hard to finish classes in 1.5 days. That is class room, tests, confined, and OW check out in that amount of time. No way a student has enough repetition to have a clue what they are doing. When I talked to my agency about it the response was that the shop was "technically" within standards and that they turned out the most students within their area. Same result when I filed a complaint with the agency because the course director was taking dive master candidates into over head environment.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Rise of internet has allowed for the "de-monopolization of truth." At the same time it has also allowed for "normalization of nonsense." If there is one instrument that has contributed significantly in my own intellectual development as a diver then it is scubaboard. At the same time if there is one instrument that has filled my mind with misleading nonsense it is scubaboard.

Here, "misleading nonsense" means well intended statements that are may make perfect sense in a particular situation in the real world but in the world of internet they are communicated by one well intended person to a total stranger whose social realities the former knows nothing of. One popular slogan that keeps popping up from forum to forum is "It is the instructor not the agency." While I do not intend to dispute the statement itself, aside from internet there are serious complications of adopting this mind set.

A). An Open Water diver has no experience or training in diving so he has little in his pocket to "judge" whether an instructor is good or bad. His initial perceptions of good and bad will be shaped by the instructor so we are basically asking that he measures the competency of his educator by using the yard stick that the same educator has provided to him.

Dudes and dudettes, I am the perfect man if I am judged by the criteria that I myself have created.

B) Whose perception of "good" shall we use to find the good instructor? Jarod Jablonski's perception of a good instructor may be very different than what your PADI LDS calls "good instructor." Neither of them are wrong. They may be good for two different purposes.

Dudes and dudettes, How can I recommend a good instructor when I do not know what your perception of good instructor is? How can I recommend a good instructor when you yourself do not know what your perception of good instructor is?

C) Scuba is an industry where every instructor is a legend in his own mind and the students they produce have only taken lessons from that one guy so in most cases they are convinced that they have gotten the best training. When you go out looking for a good instructor it may not be much different than finding the "best religion."

Dudes and dudettes, We are all disciples to people who see themselves as Prophets.

The entire purpose of training agencies was to solve this dilemma for the person who has little understanding of what he or she is getting into. When you go to MIT or Harvard University, you do not have to find a "good professor." The institution has already done that for you. If you want to eat a pizza, you do not need to find a pizza chef. You find the "brand" (Pizza Hut) and the agency has already screened and located the best pizza chef for you. In scuba industry we are telling the end consumers to ignore the agency brand and start locating the best chef. If this is not a global failure of scuba agencies then what is? If the overall consensus is that look for the instructor not the agency then that means training agencies have failed to do what they are created to do.

There are agencies that keep their instructor core very small and are extremely stringent in giving out C-cards but on an internet forum they will be under represented. They do not have enough instructors or students to have a significant voice on message boards so if you are trying to search internet forums for the best instruction then these agencies will be the most criticized or bashed ones.

In the end, internet truth and real world truth are two totally different things so let us all find a good instructor.

If this is specific to the basic OW course, then I agree the advice to look for an instructor rather than just a course is generally impractical and perhaps even counterproductive for the reasons mentioned. But so what? And so what if agencies are inherently flawed/imperfect? They're not so flawed that they consistently turn out dangerous divers--from what I have read about it, the safety record of new divers seems pretty good. My advice to a prospective OW student would be to sign up for and take whatever OW course is convenient. After the OW course, if a diver becomes interested in delving deeper into dive training, then he will gradually see the light about "it's the instructor not the agency" and gradually figure out how to locate an instructor that meets his needs. Eventually he will come across discussions on SB or read something like Jim Lapenta's book or a book on technical diving, and the lightbulb will turn on.

In other words, I think the "problem" takes care of itself over time. The further one delves into diving, the more one will benefit from "bespoke" (I think Andy used that term) training and understand how to source it. That's not to say that a prospective OW diver could not benefit from having an instructor who goes the extra mile; I just don't think there is the same need for it.

I haven't perceived "it's the instructor not the agency" being strongly pushed on the prospective OW diver on SB. However, to the extent I have just been oblivious to the rise of this as a "SB myth," then I agree it could just be confusing and otherwise not beneficial.

 

[Wookie]

In other words, I think the "problem" takes care of itself over time. The further one delves into diving, the more one will benefit from "bespoke" (I think Andy used that term) training and understand how to source it. That's not to say that a prospective OW diver could not benefit from having an instructor who goes the extra mile; I just don't think there is the same need for it.

And here's the problem with the "problem taking care of itself". It's in how the problem takes care of itself, I agree that it does, and I've seen it multiple times. A dive shop certifies a whole bunch of students, then takes them on a liveaboard (I ran such a liveaboard before I bought it). They get their butts kicked by weather, by strong currents, by the food, by all kinds of things. I saw multiple multiple Whole sets of gear with 3 dives on it sold again on the way home. So the way the problem sorts itself out is because folks quit diving. Very few are going to get over the hump of "this is great but I'm nervous" without guidance. The kind of guidance that diving with an instructor/mentor gives you. The kind of guidance that a good long university semester class gives you. The kind of guidance that "don't take a frickin brand new OW diver on a Gulf of Mexico liveaboard, are you stupid?" gives you.

Scuba isn't easy, but it can be done easily. Scuba isn't safe, but it can be done safely.

 

[The Chairman]

A couple of observations...
After reading this thread, it appears that the majority responding here believe in the ScubaBoard "myth" that it's the instructor and not the agency. Maybe it's not such a myth? I've seen good and bad instructors in EVERY agency including those that some regard as elite (sorry, GUE).

So, why do some agencies get criticized more than others? Numbers? Jealousy? Arrogance? Market pressures? Divers and instructors trying to separate themselves from the 'herd'? Unrealistic expectations? Sure. I can see all of those things and more, driving criticisms both warranted and imaginary.

But what constitutes "bad" is different from diver to diver and instructor to instructor. There's a prevalent mentality that I see among agencies, dive shops/ops, and instructors and it often gets passed down to their students and clients.: If I don't sell, dive or teach it, then it must be 'crap'. This is in part due to human nature as well as all those reasons I mentioned in the preceding paragraph. We tend to defend how we do things, often to the point of criticising anyone who does things differently. It doesn't matter if our reasons are valid, imaginary, or stem from tradition. We will defend our honor regardless of how right or wrong we might be. I teach a unique class where horizontal trim and neutral buoyancy are the penultimate goals. For a while, I would judge every class by how neutral they were by the end. By doing so, I also judged their instructor by the same "NetDoc" standard and I even poisoned my students' view of other instructors. I was unrealistic in my desire that my standards should be the de facto standard for the Scuba Industry. I even laughed and applauded some instructors who delighted in shaming other instructors who didn't see things our way. What an idiot I was.

Since then, I have taken a "dive and let dive" approach. I can appreciate the market forces that force some instructors to teach the way they do. That doesn't mean I want or have to teach that way. In fact, most are doing a better job than my instructor did many, many years ago. Hands down, no question on that. Moreover, they are collectively doing a far, far better job than the instructors I saw back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Back then, classes had to be long because we didn't know what we were doing and the gear was not all that good. We've gotten better at what we do. Trim and neutral buoyancy have never enjoyed such this amount of attention. Safety has improved too. That doesn't mean we've arrived and I look forward to seeing instruction evolve even more. My best class will always be the next one.

Remember: instructors teach for different reasons. People learn to dive for different reasons. We continue to dive or stop for different reasons. It's no wonder that there are a number of different approaches to diving and instruction. An instructor can teach you how to dive, but it's up to you as to how far you will go with it. Which is the best way? Well, mine is, of course! But you might have a different idea about that. Dive and let dive. Teach and let teach. Let's make this the United Agencies of ScubaBoard where we celebrate the art, love, and joy of diving. Tell us how and why you dive the way you do. Don't tell me how horrible you think everyone else is. Don't try and shame others to make a name for yourself or to try and force them into doing things your way. Just because they teach a 2-day course doesn't make them bad. Just because you teach a longer course doesn't make you good, either. Be responsible for you and learn to be tolerant of people doing things a bit, or even a lot differently than you. See something unsafe? Well, that's a horse of a different color, but be sure it's really unsafe and not just different. Swim a mile in their fins before you judge them.

 

[rhwestfall]

Swim a mile in their fins before you judge them.

Are they Splits?

 

[The Chairman]

Are they Splits?

They very well might be.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

If this is specific to the basic OW course, then I agree the advice to look for an instructor rather than just a course is generally impractical and perhaps even counterproductive for the reasons mentioned.

No this concern is not specific to OW.

When I did my AOW, the instructor was in absolute violation of agency standards. I had no idea what the agency standards were because as a new AOW you what do you know? I interviewed him and there was nothing in that interview that would tell me that he would be violating standards. It was much later that I found out that you can not double up on the dives. You cant take the student on a two dive charter and have one tank dive logged as "deep" because you were 100' and have it logged as wreck because you were on a wreck and then call it "drift" because there was some current on the way up! The same instructor had turned out many students who probably did not even understand that they were short ended.