Dive operator: "We won't let you ..."

[Wookie]

That sounds wonderful, but how often do we hear divers lament that they were paired with some newbie insta-buddy who had no idea what he was doing? I'm sure there are experienced divers who actually don't mind being paired with newbies, especially if the newbie make it known that he's seeking an experienced buddy to help him learn, but it seems to me that's a lot to expect from both parties. The newbie has to swallow his ego by asking for help, and the experienced diver might have to sacrifice his precious bottom time. And if I, as the newbie, "ask around at the shop," aren't the shop people the same ones who just told me "you'll be okay"? Mentoring is ideal, but it's not easy to find an experienced diver to be paired up with at the last minute. As a person often in need of an insta-buddy, it has seemed to me that the experienced divers are the ones who are already paired up--they travel with their buddies--and it's typically the less experienced divers who are left to be paired with each other. I suppose if the newbie lives near an operator he dives with on a regular basis, or travels with a dive club he belongs to, it's a different story. Unfortunately, many of us take a weekend trip somewhere and have little choice but to roll the dice.

If the operator is easy going about things, or the newb can hook up with a experienced team, the ol drop the buddy off at the mooring plan works out well. The newb huffs his air, learns some tricks, and gets dropped at the mooring to make their ascent while the more experienced pair or solo diver completes their dive.

I have only rarely seen an experienced diver refuse to be a mentor. It happens when the experienced diver is taking pictures, or is trying to accomplish something on his or her dive. Aside from that, most divers or teams are more than willing to have someone tag along. If the newb is a real huffer, it all works out because sometimes experienced divers are huffers too. The difference is "being assigned a newbie insta buddy". No one wants to be assigned. I'd be happy to dive with Bill and his better half. I'll bet that they are better divers than they think they are.

 

[Bob DBF]

And if I, as the newbie, "ask around at the shop," aren't the shop people the same ones who just told me "you'll be okay"?

Two things I'd like to point out:

1. Their assessment of your skills and experience could be accurate and your anticipation of events clouds your judgement of your own abilities.

2. May be it is time to go LDS shopping, 'cause it sounds like they are not interested in your diving experience, just in your money.

Act accordingly.


As for the "...paired with some newbie insta-buddy who had no idea what he was doing?", there is a lot of room in most stories and the truth may be lost in the telling. I dive with newbies, on occation, and I find that they usually have a good idea of what they are doing but lack experience and are quite task loaded just diving. If I was spending big bucks on a trip to a special dive site I could get annoyed, but on a trip to the Channel Islands I'll buddy with a newbie, insure they are back on the boat and finish the last half of the dive SOLO. Of course, at my age, I'm just happy to get in the water.



Bob
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I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[Lorenzoid]

If the operator is easy going about things, or the newb can hook up with a experienced team, the ol drop the buddy off at the mooring plan works out well. The newb huffs his air, learns some tricks, and gets dropped at the mooring to make their ascent while the more experienced pair or solo diver completes their dive.

I have only rarely seen an experienced diver refuse to be a mentor. It happens when the experienced diver is taking pictures, or is trying to accomplish something on his or her dive. Aside from that, most divers or teams are more than willing to have someone tag along. If the newb is a real huffer, it all works out because sometimes experienced divers are huffers too. The difference is "being assigned a newbie insta buddy". No one wants to be assigned. I'd be happy to dive with Bill and his better half. I'll bet that they are better divers than they think they are.

There's a difference between tagging along as the third buddy who will probably end up being dropped off at the mooring, and getting an experienced diver to "mentor" you. Anyway, I just chimed in on a thread I admittedly haven't been following all that closely because the suggestion to find a "mentor" in the shop or on the boat seemingly made it sound easier than it is.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Some folks on this thread stated that individual divers are the ones that should decide whether they are qualified to do a given dive. I agree, but there are qualifications....

Another example of the simple FACT that newish divers are not qualified to make this assessment is covered in the Summer 2012 issue of DAN's magazine "Alert Diver". The article titled "You'll be OK" recounts the loss of a diver who contacted a dive shop that was running a charter and recounted her experience level, and told the famous line "You'll be OK". She was paired up on the boat with another newish diver and an instructor who was also training an instructor trainee. It was her first boat dive, limited viz and no light. Briefly, they got separated from the instructor, the buddy didn't stay close and saw her unconscious in the water, but he didn't know how to ascend with her, didn't release weights or inflate the BCD, and she died. Both divers relied on someone else's opinion that the dive was appropriate for them.

Newish divers aren't trained in good buddy protocol, nor in simple rescue techniques like dropping weights. Instructors constantly tell us "Follow me" which does not train people in being a good buddy. (I have had instructors or divemasters swim away from me while I was helping my buddy with a minor issue plenty of times.) That makes almost any dive "above your experience level" unless an experienced diver is close by.

My opinion.

- Bill

Unfortunately this is all too true. And it's why I developed a presentation, have wrote numerous articles on the subject, included it in my book, and teach every Open Water student I have and every con ed student I have not trained previously in these areas before they get a card from me. There is no justifiable reason for an instructor to not teach these to their student. They simply choose not to or in some cases can't. Either because they are in a hurry, don't care, or I firmly believe - based on the feedback I've gotten at some of my presentations - they themselves don't know how. They've been too busy learning how to sell a class and not how to really teach it.
They are so worried about selling the next course and not about training a skilled, competent diver that does not need the next course. I have found that the more time you spend in the Open Water course and the more info you give, the more likely it is that the student will come back. Because they want to. Not because they need to.

 

[D_B]

{snip} I have found that the more time you spend in the Open Water course and the more info you give, the more likely it is that the student will come back. Because they want to. Not because they need to.

boy, are you right about that .. and I'll venture that it is true for any further dive classes as well

 

[jrutigl]

Bill,

While I understand that novice divers lack some experience in deciding what they can and cannot handle, I and most divers I know have a gut feel about what is "scary" and what isn't. I have cancelled dives because I didn't feel comfortable about dive conditions. Diver Operators (and certifying agencies) are commercial entities with revenue motivation - Fill the Dive Boat, Book all live-aboard spaces. There is no great answer to "who should be ultimately responsible." The obvious answers (certifying agencies and dive operators) generally don't work. I say generally because I have seen dive operators refuse a dive to a novice diver and some dive instructors refuse to certify a bad diver. Specifically I remember diving Andros and the Dive instructor required me (with 2000 plus dives) and others to check out dive and remove and replace our masks under water. If you couldn't perform, he limited your dives to non-currednt and above 60 feet.

The dive incident you are talking about, I believe occurred on a liveaboard in the Galapogos. In my opinion the dive operator had the best chance to prevent that disaster by denying the novice-diver access to experienced-required dives that combined cold water, high current, and low low visibility dives. Secondarily, she should have been buddy with a guide or experience diver who agrees to be watchful (not all will). The young woman in all likelihood paniced at some point because she was found without a mask and mouthpiece and air in her tank. I suspect that she lost either her mouthpiece or mask in high current and paniced when she found difficulty in either getting the mask back on in current or finding her loose mouthpiece which might not have been in the typical location because of the current. It only takes a moment of panic to die under-water. In either case, a nearby buddy would have prevented the tragedy.

We all must remember that diving is relatively safe sport for trained and experienced divers and a dangerous one for the untrained or inexperienced.

 

[JohnCoffeyPhoto]

Your AOW class REQUIRES a deep dive (below 60ft)... if you were certified without this, then you should contact your cert. agency. Otherwise, even Open-Water certified divers can dive to 100ft, and that is the deepest any dive shop on maui, or most places, will take you without your advanced cert. 40ft, 80ft and 100ft, ar all very EASY depths to dive to and especially wiht direct supervision from an instructor. I vote, the dive operator that you talked to gave you great advise... Hope this helps.

 

[billt4sf]

Bill,

The dive incident you are talking about, I believe occurred on a liveaboard in the Galapogos. .

No, it occurred in Kona. Which may further support my point that newish divers aren't typically qualified to judge what they are ready for, and what they are not ready for.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...-worked-out-great-now-were-really-scared.html

- Bill

 

[Bonairetrip]

My query: We are novice divers, about 50 dives each. We did the AOW class but not the "Deep Diving" portion. It seems to me from reading your website that several dive sites would be better done if we did get that deeper experience before coming. We would really like to see some sharks and other larger creatures so I guess that deep diving cert is important - ?


Their response: Wedo not require an AOW certification incl. the deep adventure dive to let you do Deep Dives. Once the dive crew has seen you in the water diving and feels comfortable with your diving skills, you will certainly be able to do the deeper dives as well.
We will never put you in a situation you are not comfortable with and would work with you before you go on a deep dive.



Thanks in advance for your comments.

- Bill

I actually love their response. It says to me:
a) We want to see how you actually dive before we decide if more challenging dives are appropriate. (I suspect that means everything from how you handle your gear to your air consumption, trim and general comfort level in the water.)
b) We think the deep dive is not really indicative of being ready nor do we think not having made the dive means you are not ready.
c) They will work with the divers and they will make sure they are comfortable with the the deeper dive (if any).

But the fact that the OP appears apprehensive causes me to encourage him to take the deep diver specialty class. That said, classes are not the only good way to learn new skills....

 

[diverrex]

The dive op referred to in the OP is Sea Saba. They are a good op. Just for some real world reference though when we dove with them on the first day for the first dive (mid week with a group of divers they had been diving with) they said they planned a site over 100 fsw. They asked my wife if she was comfortable doing that as her first dive of the trip and her first dive in 10 months. Before she could answer they followed their question with the comment "you are AOW and have over 100 dives so you should probably be okay". She was of course but it probably would have been better for her to start with a 60 foot dive and them to actally watch her dive instead of going off the info she put on the waiver release.