Diver drowns in guided cenote dive

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Those guided cenote dives are widely believed to be safe, judging by their frequency and publicity. And the reason I think they are believed to be safe relates to the conventionally made distinction between "cavern dives" and "cave dives".

. . . The exit (or at least the direction of exit) should be visible at all times. The divers must remain close to open water. . . .

Yes and no. As someone else pointed out, the reason these guided cenote dives are not prohibited outright is that the local dive community shoehorns them into the definition of "cavern dive," which much of the worldwide community does not prohibit open water divers from doing. A generally accepted definition of cavern zone is that it extends no farther than the daylight extends, up to some distance that's close enough for a diver to fairly easily swim to open water, no restrictions, etc. As has also been pointed out, in Mexico the definition of "cavern" is stretched to its limits and beyond in order to encompass many of the cenotes where these guided "cavern" dives take place. There are at least some stretches along the cavern lines of some cenotes where daylight is nonexistent or so dim as to be essentially nonexistent, and which would be a longer swim back to open water than the distance by which the major training agencies define the cavern zone. (Since the line may be circular, and there are places to pop up into open water here and there along the route, it usually isn't immediately apparent to the diver which way leads to the nearest open water.) No, there are definitely stretches along the cavern line in some if not many cenotes where these dives take place that are beyond what the major agencies consider cavern zone.

As has also been pointed out, there are wrecks out there that similarly stretch the definition of cavern zone, and in which open water divers are routinely offered trust-me dives by guides. I suppose if those wrecks became as highly visited as the cenotes have become, and a proportional few deaths occurred on those, we would have a thread discussing similar issues.

I've gotten as far in my training as a cavern course, and I don't see how that alone makes me substantially safer in these guided cenote dives (other than the fact that since taking the cavern course I have not yet decided whether I am going to do another one; I feel more educated about the risks). A tiny bit safer, maybe, but every dive we do to gain experience, every extra minute of thought we put into the plan, gear check, etc., makes us a tiny bit safer. If a guide gives a thorough cenote dive briefing according to the local guidelines, it's sort of a (horribly) abbreviated cavern course, covering the rudiments of light use, swimming as a team, following a line, non-silting kicks, etc. (And of course everyone "passes" the "course"--no one is denied the cenote dive they paid for.) The guided cenote dives probably have become safer since the guidelines were adopted. Do the guidelines go far enough? Are too many people still dying? Where should the line be drawn in determining what is necessary to keep divers as safe on one of these cenote dives as any other cavern dive elsewhere in the world? There is no way that guided cavern (including wreck) dives will ever be banned completely, worldwide, such that all divers must be cave certified. Require cavern certification? Or something more practical, like adding a sweeper guide in the rear as mentioned several times in this thread?
 
this man already had training that told him not to engage in diving he wasn't trained to do ... it's part of the very Open Water class I know you teach.
Did he? He wasn't my student. Was he yours? How do you know what he was taught? Did he learn right there in Mexico where they told him that this does not apply to a guided tour? You're making an assumption that I'm not willing to make.

Furthermore, I have yet to read any online class that point blank says: "Don't do trust me dives!" I don't think I've read that in any OW text book either. Have you? I don't believe I ever heard the term before I found ScubaBoard.

Lest my message be diluted by your suggestion that I am being dishonest, I will repeat it: Trust me dives are incredibly dangerous and should be avoided. If you want to do a particular dive, please be sure you have the training you need to complete the dive safely. It's my personal opinion that this accident could have been prevented with the proper training. A number of people seem to disagree with me on this. I have no clue what their message is, why they disagree with me or apparently exactly how they disagree. What you don't know in a cavern or cave can kill you. Here, ignorance is often lethal and not just embarrassing. Since I am selfish and want others to continue to read and post on ScubaBoard, I implore them to get the proper training before they venture into either a cavern or a cave. There is nothing down there, no thrill and certainly no experience that's worth dying for. Nothing, nada and squat.
 
Seriously Pete? Does your agency not specifically say in their Open Water text what the limitations of Open Water certification are? Mine does. Doesn't your agency specify that you train your Open Water divers that their training does not include diving in environments where they do not have direct access to the surface? Mine does.

As I recall, you used to teach through NAUI, and currently teach through PADI. I happen to know that both of those agencies specifically state those things in their training manuals.

We don't disagree at all about trust me dives. You know that. Where we disagree is that simply telling divers not to do them is an effective approach to preventing accidents such as these. Human nature being what it is, people hear what they want to hear ... and do what they want to do. Training won't change that ... it just gives people more tools to help them make more informed choices. But ultimately they're going to choose to do what they want to. And as long as there's someone out there willing to sell them what they want to buy, they'll buy it ... and as long as there's a market for selling recreational divers tours in an overhead environment, there will be people out there selling it. That's the reality ... however much we decide to argue the finer points of what we believe, or pick words out of context from those who are trying to point out that it's not as simple as "just say no".

Sure ... by all means warn people that trust me dives are dangerous. And tell them why. I completely agree with that. But it's simplistic to believe that telling them will prevent those who want to do them anyway from finding a way to do so. The people you will reach are those who are least in need of reaching ... those who most need to hear it won't listen to you anyway ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I've gotten as far in my training as a cavern course, and I don't see how that alone makes me substantially safer in these guided cenote dives (other than the fact that since taking the cavern course I have not yet decided whether I am going to do another one; I feel more educated about the risks). A tiny bit safer, maybe, but every dive we do to gain experience, every extra minute of thought we put into the plan, gear check, etc., makes us a tiny bit safer. If a guide gives a thorough cenote dive briefing according to the local guidelines, it's sort of a (horribly) abbreviated cavern course, covering the rudiments of light use, swimming as a team, following a line, non-silting kicks, etc. (And of course everyone "passes" the "course"--no one is denied the cenote dive they paid for.) The guided cenote dives probably have become safer since the guidelines were adopted. Do the guidelines go far enough? Are too many people still dying? Where should the line be drawn in determining what is necessary to keep divers as safe on one of these cenote dives as any other cavern dive elsewhere in the world? There is no way that guided cavern (including wreck) dives will ever be banned completely, worldwide, such that all divers must be cave certified. Require cavern certification? Or something more practical, like adding a sweeper guide in the rear as mentioned several times in this thread?

A cavern class will make you better aware of what the risks are ... and by being aware of them, help you avoid them. Watching the line, for example ... the easiest way for accidents such as this to occur is for someone to be not paying attention to where the line is and suddenly realize that they've wandered sufficiently far away to have lost sight of it. Now what do they do? Having gone through the cavern training will not only help you learn to avoid that situation, but what to do about it if you should find you've strayed in this manner. If you've paid attention to your training you've at least got a safety reel with you and knowledge of how to use it. That knowledge and preparation may well be the difference between finding the line again vs wandering off in the wrong direction ... because it's incredibly easy to get turned around in a cave, particularly one without noticeable flow, and find yourself going in when you think you're going out. And that's effectively a death sentence.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Seriously Pete? Does your agency not specifically say in their Open Water text what the limitations of Open Water certification are?
Srsly Bob? Are you actually satisfied with the one or two sentences that don't mention "overhead", "cavern" or "cave"? I can't remember a single explicit reference in that regard. Almost all of them use the ultra vague "similar conditions to those you were trained in" or words to that effect. Again, I can't recall a single reference to trust me dives and never a suggestion that your instructor might be the very one to ask you to risk your life needlessly.

Am I really being unreasonable? I don't think so.

As I recall, you used to teach through NAUI, and currently teach through PADI.
You recall wrongly and seem to be twisting the point.

by all means warn people that trust me dives are dangerous.
Glad to have your permission. Yet, you still seem to have an issue that I do so.

those who most need to hear it won't listen to you anyway ...
Again, I disagree. I'm sure this will be couched as being dishonest again, but I'm not going to quote everything you wrote. ScubaBoard enjoys a number of readers who aren't even divers as well as many who are new to the sport. I don't write for unreasonable people or those whose minds are already made up. I would never come out of the Pub were that the case. Rather, I write for those seeking information on these accidents and how to avoid them. I haven't read a single solution put forth save my strident "Get the training you need to do the dive". I've only read a number of people telling me how simplistic I'm being, how training will never work as well as how I'm being dishonest. Good job in undermining my rather simple suggestion.

For those whose minds are not made up: If you want to continue to live and enjoy Scuba, don't do trust me dives. Get the training you need to do any particular dive before you do it. There are any number of people out there who don't really care about your safety: they just want to sell you an adventure. Caveat emptor. You and you alone are really in charge of your safety. You can call a dive before you even get wet. Training will make any dives you do more enjoyable with fewer white knuckles. This is especially true for overhead environments.

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Bob, Pete, I don't think you guys are communicating. If I understand Pete, he is saying that while NAUI, PADI, SSI, <insert training agency> all teach to dive within your limits and to not go into overhead environments without training, unless we are physically present at a person's open water course, we do not know if the instructor actually teaches that.

Bob's point of the economics factor is spot on. No one is going to turn away business down there. While when I dove the 4 cenotes, we never went past the death/warning sign. We will never know what happened to the diver. Did he have a light? I would assume from my experience that one would be required. But I wasn't there. If he did not have a light, I can see how he may have swum past such a sign (assuming it was in the dark). But if he did have a light and instead decided to explore, .... not much can be done about that. We are trained in open water that we are responsible for ourselves. My students laugh when I say, when it comes to your gear and your limits, don't trust me either. But I'm serious. I then tell them my own experience of a bad "trust me" dive that I had with an instructor. That gets the point across
 
But I'm serious. I then tell them my own experience of a bad "trust me" dive that I had with an instructor.
My AOW instructor brought me down 120 ft into Blue Spring without a light. We swam in complete darkness from 80 ft down. I remember him telling us his daring do at diving this cave and having to stick to the one side of the cave. When we reached the bottom, I let go of his hand and grabbed his BC on the other side. For the next 10/15 minutes we swam around down there as he was frantically looking for me. I had a set of double 72s on, so I had plenty of gas. I finally tapped him on the side to encourage him to ascend and we did. We survived, so it was safe right? It took me a full year to fully realize the danger he put me in. Yeah, my training was more than sufficient there. Not. I learned how close I came to death right here on ScubaBoard. Certainly, I remember my instructor's saucer sized eyes and his incredulous exclamation that we had done that dive after we surfaced. He knew the danger probably because he was full cave. "Wow, I won't do that again!" were his words. Like I wrote, it took me a full year to piece the whole dive together and understand why we were swimming all over the place @120 ft. It's not like I could see anything but the digits on my Cobra. I was simply doing what my instructor asked of me.

It's not just Mexico, but it's always your decision. I won't put myself in that position again. I'm either trained to do the dive or I'm not going in. No exceptions. There's nothing down there worth dying for. I don't give a flying banana that their entire economy depends on my doing a certain dive. It's always my decision and I'm going to play it safe.
 
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rsly Bob? Are you actually satisfied with the one or two sentences that don't mention "overhead", "cavern" or "cave"? I can't remember a single explicit reference in that regard.
The current PADI curriculum says very specifically and very clearly that OW divers should not go into any overhead environments whatsoever without training. I mentioned this earlier in the thread, in great detail, in fact.

It was part of my explanation of why such absolute warnings are worthless. Thousands of divers go through short overheads and other very easy to navigate overheads all over the world, often on their very first dive after certification. Once they see that everybody is doing it, they write that rule off and are left with no guidance whatsoever. How are they to know how much more dangerous the one overhead environment is from another.
 
How are they to know how much more dangerous the one overhead environment is from another.
Common sense?

Yes, I know it's in pretty short supply.
 
A cavern class will make you better aware of what the risks are ... and by being aware of them, help you avoid them. Watching the line, for example ... the easiest way for accidents such as this to occur is for someone to be not paying attention to where the line is and suddenly realize that they've wandered sufficiently far away to have lost sight of it. Now what do they do? Having gone through the cavern training will not only help you learn to avoid that situation, but what to do about it if you should find you've strayed in this manner. If you've paid attention to your training you've at least got a safety reel with you and knowledge of how to use it. That knowledge and preparation may well be the difference between finding the line again vs wandering off in the wrong direction ... because it's incredibly easy to get turned around in a cave, particularly one without noticeable flow, and find yourself going in when you think you're going out. And that's effectively a death sentence.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I think all that goes to the "tiny bit safer" comment I made. So because I spent 2-1/2 days in a cavern course and was instructed to watch the line and spent a day or so doing that, am I really that much better at watching the line than someone who is already supposedly a competent open water diver and who is similarly instructed to watch the line as part of the 15-minute or so briefing that the guides are supposed to do? I would say I am likely "a tiny bit" better than the average guided cenote diver without cavern training. After a few of these guided cenote dives, many divers are probably just as good at watching the line as I am now (which is to say not very good). As for the safety spool, it's not like a 2-1/2 day cavern course gave me a lot of opportunity to practice finding a lost line. And realistically, even a cavern-trained diver might rent gear there and not have a safety spool. (Of course, this assume the cavern-trained diver ignores what he learned in his cavern training and not only decides to do a guided cenote dive but to do so without all of the gear he used in the cavern course.) I suppose the guides could expand the briefing to cover how to use a spool to find a lost line, but it all comes back to the question of how much instruction is enough? 15 minutes? 2-1/2 days? Full cave course? I don't have the answer. But I am following this thread (occasional sniping aside) with interest.
 

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