Diver drowns while training

[danceswithoctopus]

indypddiver,

Please convey our condolences to Mr. Jolliff's survivors for me, my family, and (I trust they will agree) the members of this board. I am certain that no one here meant any disrespect with any comments made. We strive to understand as much as we can about every diving accident in order to learn and prevent similar accidents. So any factual information you might provide for us would be invaluable to us. As you know, local media coverage is notoriously bad (they often state that the diver 'ran out of oxygen' or some such useless drivel). Those of us who are far removed from the scene must rely on those of you who are in close contact. If you feel so inclined, I invite you to share as many details as you feel comfortable with. As I said earlier, we wish to learn, and to prevent similar accidents.

Please know that Paul, as well as his family, is in my thoughts and prayers.

:tribute:

God Bless

 

[MikeFerrara]

indypddiver,

Who teaches you guys to drop the weights of a distressed diver at depth? This seems to be a theme in Iny, ref the report from the last accident? Why do you learn or practice the use of lines in searches at 70 ft. Why wasn't the instructor or the DM in the water (aug 2000)? Why, After the call for help did another student descend to 70 ft again (like his third descent) and the instructor and DM stay at the surface (Aug 2000)? In aug 2000, why were two searches conducted so close together? Why were the buoys not anchored securely? In Aug 2000 why did they drop the victems weights? I have participated in rescue training, search and recovery training, advanced trainind and ice training of dive team members (not from the Indy department) They were all green, had poor buoyancy control and didn't in general dive enough to ever get good. The department requires what? 6 dives per year. Well...that is a busy weekend. They certainly didn't have the experience to do that kind of work. Please don't (at least not for me) contrast this to recreational diving. I know all about bad vis, especially when it is caused by the students conducting the search. You are close, come talk to me and you will see the kind of dives we do. These training dives are not what we would call challanging by any stretch of the imagination, althouh you are certainly training for some of the worst conditions. Nobody should get hurt doing the training. Memorize the report from Aug 2000 like I have and then lets sit down and talk. I will try to stay calm. I could write a book on this one outraguous incedent. It should never have happened. I conduct many S & R training dives much like this one every year. We do it different and it never gets this messy. We not only dive cold and bad vis and with lines, we do so a quarter mile back in a cave. If I only get one thing done in my life I want to contribute to helping wake some people up. I am truuely sorry about the death of these men. No...I am mad and refuse to shrug it off by saying "Oh well these terible things happen". That is how we avoid accountability. Mourning isn't enough, somebody need to do something.

Mike

 

[MikeFerrara]

Here is the url of a detailed report of the accident of Aug 2000.
www.cdc.gov/niosh/pdfs/face200038.pdf

This report will answer many question and it will raise many. I don't make all this noise meaning disrespect. These families deserve more than condolances. If things don't change in a meaningful way they will only have company.

 

[MikeFerrara]

As you read the above report draw a diagram of what is being describe. Some things will not make sense at first. You may need to read it many times, I did. I read and went over it enough times to go a couple of days without sleep doing it. Ask me questions if you want I have memorized the entire report and I teach all these same searches as well as rescue. If you are unfamiliar with these search techniques you will miss some of the worst parts. Ask and I will explain.

 

[sharpenu]

Indypddiver:

A link from the Line of Duty Death page of firehouse.com states that it was a six week class for beginning divers. Link:

http://www.firehouse.com/lodd/2002/in_jun14.html

I will restate my sadness at a brother firefighter's death, but I must repeat:
A GOOD AND PROPER TRAINING PROGRAM WILL NOT KILL TWO DIVERS IN AS MANY YEARS. PERIOD. If, in fact there are 3 to 5 deaths per year to rescue divers, that means your department alone is responsible for 20 to 33 percent of all rescue team deaths in the last two years. You don't consider that to be a problem? With those numbers, you have to wonder what the training division is thinking. Does your department not comply with 29CFR1910.134 which states:

"When self contained breathing apparatus are used in atmospheres that are imminently dangerous to life or health, standby men must be present with suitable rescue equipment."

Where was the safety team? How many logged dives are required before you allow personnel to participate in this course?
Do you have a written procedure for dive operations? Where is your local chamber? What qualifications does your scene commander or operations officer have? Accidents don't just happen from one event. They are usually the cumulative result of many small events. Two accidents in two years tells me IFD has a serious problem. As a rescue diver yourself, I would hope you would want to fix it.

 

[gentlegiant]

I am somewhat confused at what appears to be the lack of a National standard for public service rescue divers. It would seem to me that there would be some sort of certification process. like there is for an EMT, for public service rescue divers. I have been thinking of volunteering as a diver for the local police/fire departments, but I was not even going to consider it until I had reached SSI master diver status (AOW+rescue+50 logged dives) and had the search and recovery specialist plus maybe cavern training. To me this seems like the minimum skill set needed for this type of diving.

Are there any recognized standards for public service divers?

What sort of training requirements are there?

Also, in this latest case what were the training levels of the people overseeing the dive? Were they DM or instructor rated?

I am saddened by the loss, but I am trying to understand why this happened.

 

[indypddiver]

Mr. Ferrara,

I think you can understand that I cannot and will not comment directly on ANYTHING involving the particulars of the most recent accident involving Firefighter Paul Jolliff. The incident is very much under investigation and anything I'd have to say would only be conjecture at best anyway. Because of my position on the police team, and because I was present, I am a small part of that investigation...but a part none the less.

I was not present at the accident in 2000. The firefighter you refer to was Warren J.C. Smith, someone I knew well. I will do my best to answer the questions that I can answer, but again, please remember that anything I express is simply my own opinion.

Your message says that you "have participated in rescue training, search and recovery training, advanced training, and ice training of dive team members..." Are you insinuating that you are an instructor of such techniques? Do you dive for a living? I have participated in countless basketball games, but I'm not a coach. You say "they were all green, had poor buoyancy control and didn't in general dive enough to ever get good. The department requires what...6 dives per year? Well...that's a busy weekend." I'm sure you were once exactly as described above, everyone was at some point. Although you might have met a few public safety divers on a small, relatively quiet department somewhere in po-dunk Indiana, we took over 130 dive calls last year alone. I think I can safely assume that my department team is by far the busiest dive team in the state. I'm also curious as to how you personally have the ability to define diving experience? Does 20 dives make you "good?" Does 200? Ability comes with experience, yet all divers must start at the bottom.

You say our "training dives are not what we would call challenging by any strectch of the imagination..." How would you possibly know? Have you actually been to one of our training dives and participated? I didn't see you there. You base your information on a report about an accident and a newspaper article about another. Please do not confuse the class that was in session when Firefighter Jolliff died with the training dives we do as a department. They are completely separate and distinct entities.

You make reference to the diving that you and your friends do. Your profile says your an engineer. A diving engineer? You would certainly have to agree that cave diving (which is what I believe you do) is inherently the most dangerous of all diving. I sincerely applaud your personal safety record, however, its not the same everywhere. I admire your bravery at diving in cold water with low vis a quarter of a mile back in a cave. We all know cave divers are the coolest.

Mr. Ferrara, if you are the first and last word on this particular message board, I apologize for interrupting. I can't wait for the book.

indypddiver

 

[indypddiver]

sharpenu,

You make extremely good points with your last message. I want to clarify something right away. I AM NOT a member of the fire department's dive team, I am a member of the police department's team. Therefore, "my" team is not responsible for any of the statistics you pointed out. We do, however, train and take calls often together.

As I stated in the previous message, I cannot comment on anything related to Paul Jolliff's accident. If I could, I would certainly try to answer your questions. As far as the police department team...yes, we do comply with 29CFR1910.34. Yes, we do have extensive written SOPs. There is a hyperbaric chamber located in atleast one major hospital (Methodist) in downtown Indianapolis. There may be more, I'm not sure. The dive commanders for "my" team have decades of experience and have more certifications related to diving AND leading dive teams than I can count. Our commander has been with the team since its beginning, over 28 years ago and the team consists of over 200 years of diving experience together. Indianapolis is a city with a metro area of approximately 1.5 million. Both the fire and police departments are large departments in relation to the national average and our workloads are extremely busy. However, there are numerous departments that cover other areas of the city and county as well. We are not a bunch of part timers, waiting around for the "big one."

SEE PART TWO

 

[indypddiver]

I completely agree that a good training program should help prevent accidents such as we've had in the last two years. I also think that the training that both departments provide does this very well. I cannot argue the fact that IFD (and in turn the PD) has sustained terrible losses, nor am I making any excuses what so ever. I do, however, ask you to view these events in a analytical manner rather than rush to judgement. If you work for a decent-sized department, then you know that the stories and articles you see and read about your department, in the media, only tell half the story.

Most importantly, to EVERYONE who wishes to converse with me about anything, I am not attempting to attack anyone's opinion or say I know definitively what's right or wrong in any matter. I am extremely willing to share ideas in a positive manner rather than in the antagonistic manner in which I think these messages are going. I don't have the answers. I wish I did.

As a side note: sharpenu...Paul Jolliff was laid to rest with the highest of honors, deserving of a man who honored us all with his presence. We did it right.

 

[JamesK]

Originally posted by indypddiver
We all know cave divers are the coolest.

And don't you forget it!!!!!!!!