Diver drowns while training

[Dryglove]

I give mike a big two thumbs up!! Its not everyday someone is willing to donate there time and knowledge in the way you have.We also get lucky from time to time and have some very experienced personnel come and show us there tricks of the trade.Our department ussually didnt care as long as it didnt cost them money.Typical BS.

Im glad to see your team doesnt have an ego problem cause i have seen some bad ones.I know of one team that lost three members on one callout due to stupidity,lack of training and serious ego problems.Had they seeked training outside there own clique they would be alive today.When an outside agency investigated several supervisors were relieved of duty.They totally defended what they had done but when the real experts came in,they were all ate up.When questioned about there tactics and decisions it came down to the fact they thought they were extremely well trained and didnt need any outside training.I myself wether diving or work seek any and all training available to me.A lot of time we donate our time off with no pay just to get our act together and stay focused as a team.Another saying is train hard...fight easy.

I really hope things work out with your department and mike.I know i would do anything possible including my offtime to see his aspect on diving and safety.Goodluck to you all and be safe!! I also commend your diving team for the risks you take to help others in trouble.The average person or diver will probably never fully realize what you guys risk just to get the job done.

 

[wrecNcaver]

Originally posted by lal7176
I give mike a big two thumbs up!! Its not everyday someone is willing to donate ........




As I read the threads of this post, what strikes me the most is the passion everyone has for diving and the safety of all divers!!! As most of us read of a death, we morn the loss of a fellow diver and the feel the sadness of their family and friends. Discussions such as this focuses the spotlight on making sure that any knowledge learned by a death can benifit all divers.

Many of us my not participate in posting to these threads, but the knowledge is greatly appreciated even on such a sad and tragic event. Stay passionate, stay safe.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Here is what we would like to do. I don’t know if there will be any interest but we’ll see. First off, I believe that many public safety divers just don’t dive enough. More is better. I also believe that they don’t get out enough. They need more varied experience with different divers and exposure to different techniques. Knowledge is power as they say. I think that if the individual diver is proficient enough he/she will be far safer regardless of what is done by other divers or management. As civilians we are free to choose our instructors and teammates. One of the fundamentals we teach is to choose well. The public safety diver doesn’t have that luxury. I won’t enter a cave with just anyone. This fact alone increases their risk making an individual that much more responsible for their own safety.

We want to sponsor an ongoing workshop for public safety divers. The purpose is to provide a forum for the sharing of dive related information and techniques. Subjects can be anything of interest to attendees. Group dives will also be planned. The dives will be planned based on interest, ability and experience of the attendees. I spoke with a former instructor of mine who is a police academy instructor, public safety diving instructor; technical instructor and full cave diver and he has agreed to participate. He has law enforcement experience and training that I simply don’t have. There will be no cost or obligation of any kind; therefore, department approval should not be an issue. I also have a fairly well stocked reference library, which I will make available. The intent is not to provide formal training or certifications but to provide free access to dive professionals and information. Also this is not in any way meant to be a substitute for any training provided or required by any department.

Our pool of rental equipment is primarily used to teach classes and is not very large. However, based on availability, we will provide free use of equipment to dive team members who do not own equipment or have access to department equipment. The intent is to encourage them to dive. This includes tanks and air. Our intent is not to get involved in public safety diving but to encourage public safety divers be more involved in diving.

I’m not sure of the best way to get word of this out so if anyone knows of anyone in the general vicinity of Lafayette Indiana let them know. If anyone is interested let me know. One is enough to start.

Shop phone 765 446-1306

 

[dvleemin]

You're an amazing guy Mike!!!!

 

[Dryglove]

Way to go mike!! Public safety divers would have to be foolish not to jump at this oppurtunity.I know i would!! Im not exactly to sure what type of store you run or if you even do mail orders but i would be more than happy to send you some future bussiness from me and fellow divers to help support your efforts.

 

[DeepSeaDan]

Yet another example of the value of this forum...it is truly a benefit to us all.

My $.02...

To put it simply, Pipedope & a few others stated the real solution to this quandry. Surface-supplied diving, with its' inherent communications, standby divers, redundant air supplies etc., etc. is the way to go for public safety diving ( an exception to this philosophy is outlined in the following paragraph ). Expensive? You bet. But I say, if your dept. cannot or will not afford this equipment & requisite training, get out of the business. Contract out such work to commercial operators trained & equipped to conduct such diving ops. This from a Firefighter, former commercial diver & Scuba Instructor.

My department had a dive team, but it was disbanded long before I came aboard. The Provincial Police handle body recovery work. I am currently trying to create a rapid response system for VERY LIMITED u/w rescue capability to complement our already considerable list of emergency response capability, which includes a well equipped & capable marine rescue component. I am thinking of quick deployment scuba rescue service confined to a strict set of criteria ( depth, search area, dive time etc., etc. ). Essentially, I'd like to make us capable of performing u/w rescue of witnessed drownings in uncomplicated areas ( ie: no fast water, flow control areas or other known hazardous locales ). Anyone with any ideas in that direction I'd appreciate hearing from.

My condoloences to Brother Jolliff's family & all his coworkers.

Sincerely,
Daniel J. Vale

 

[MikeFerrara]

Why don’t we ask the fox what happened to the chicken?
Friday afternoon 6/22 I received a call from someone claiming to be from Fox 59 in Indianapolis. She said she was a diver and had been following this thread and wanted to talk to me about the report on the Aug 2000 accident. We started but she was interrupted and said she would call back. She called back and was interrupted again. She called back again and asked about my credentials. I gave her the highlights. She said that she had been talking to someone in Colorado and they had never heard of me. I believe her since I don’t know anyone out there other than one of my uncles and I don’t know why she would talk to him. She then asked what the url of this board was and asked if anyone could get on. But wait…she had told me she was following the thread. I do know that the “International Association of Dive Rescue Specialists are centered there. I never heard of these folks until I saw them mentioned in the paper recently. Like I said before they keep this stuff all in the family. I believe they are looking in all the wrong places for answers. Why would you ask the fox what happened to the chicken?

Many of us know the names of some of the greatest divers on the face of the planet. I have not seen any of them quoted. If you want to know why things go wrong underwater you should talk to people who spend their time underwater. They are forming all kinds of committees to report to committees. I wonder, do any of them dive or teach diving? Have any of them ever managed a panicked diver underwater. Have any of them seen first hand what kind of things lead to panic?

The other day there was a picture in the Indianapolis Star depicting police divers at work. The picture showed a diver with what looked like an alternate on a long hose banded to his single tank behind him. The regulator was dangling on a good deal of hose straight down along his tank near the bottom. I submit that this is photographic evidence of a significant part of the real problem. When this diver or his buddy is hurt they will form a committee. No one with the experience to understand will be involved.

The article stated that they had taken safety measures that might have prevented the other deaths like having backup divers and ambulances on hand. I guess only a diver would know what a bunch of BS this is. The only prevention is a much higher degree of diving skill and avoiding the mistakes in the first place. Once you make one to many mistakes underwater and a diver panics the chances of correcting the situation are slim to none. They might start by straightening up their equipment configuration. It’s always the simple things that matter most.

 

[TheDivingBear]

....first, I am not a rescue diver, nor am I in the public service. Heck, I am not even open water certified (yet). But, I do live in Indy, I am taking lessons, and I've followed this story as best I've been able to.

In my humble opinion, I believe that most of the divers on the FD and PD need experience. I agree with Mike, I saw the photo and had to ask myself what they were thinking. Some of the divers interviewed dive for the job, not because they like to. They do no diving outside the call of duty. Sure, they get in some practice, but they need more. They need to do this because they like to, not for hazardous duty pay (at least some miltary divers get paid a little extra for diving).

Again, in my opinion, I cannot think of anything more scarey than something unexpected happening when I am 70ft below the water. My instinct, and many other novice divers may agree, is to surface by any means possible. If that includes losing the weightbelt, so be it. BTW, PADI does teach you to use the right handed quick release belts for just that purpose. This instinct, I think, is the brain saying, "Hey Dummy, the air is up there!" Someone else on the board, though, pointed out to me that my closest air is not a tthe surface, but on my back. Knowing that, I fight that urge, that instinct, to surface and work through the problem. Yes, I still pop every now and then, but I am getting better at it.

I read a thread on the board that described a training techique in a confined area where paper bags were placed in the masks to simulate limited viz and instructors swam around removing fins, turning off air, and in general causing chaos to simulate various real life situations. I believe the thread said this was an OW class, but I would dispute that as I cannot see any instructor doing that to a bunch of beginners. However, as I get more experience, I would love to particiapte in a class like this. It is in managing these types of problems in a more controlled enviroment that we, as divers, are more prepared for real life problems.

Lastly, but most importantly, my condolences to the family of a hero. I did not know him, but the blessings bestowed by him and his comrads-in-arms are felt in our lives everyday. May his sacrafice bring to light the weaknesses in us all to make us better in whatever we do.

Bear

 

[MikeFerrara]

TheDivingBear,

Read a little further into the text. A buoyant ascent is a last stitch effort to survive only. Reference the rescue Diver text. Even when surfacing an unresponsive diver dropping the weights is only recommended when the diver is too heavy to surface otherwise. Dropping weights is, however, recommended to establish pos. buoyancy at the surface if the bc doesn't do the trick. Rapid ascents are to be avoided, they are dangerouse. Some of your aparent misconception are why I encourage everyone to go at least as far as rescue diver. I brought up a panicked diver yesterday. The diver tore the reg out of my mouth and, somewhere along the line, spit out their own. All my efforts were directed toward slowing the divers ascent (and my own). You can live a while without air. You can live after aspirating a little water. If you ascend to quickly your lungs blow up and you die. If at any time you think a buoyant or rapid ascent is the answer you are probably not thinking. And if it is the only option left you have already made so many mistakes that your chances are not good.

Mike

Mike

 

[TheDivingBear]

Mike, I agree it IS a last ditch effort, but it is taught. And, if you are not thinking, your are right, it may be the last thing you do.