Diving War Graves

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I think it is very much an issue of respect. I see no problem with visiting any wreck where people died and are still entombed as long as you respect it as you would any other cemetary.

Properly done, a dive on a wreck where people have died, war grave or otherwise, causes the diver to remember and reflect upon the events that led to the sinking and on the sailors aboard much like visiting a historical battlefield. There is really no greater honor for the dead than to be remembered in that very personal and meaningful fashion.

The problems occur when some insensitive idiot decides it's his/her God given right to plunder the wreck for artifacts, remains, etc with no concern given to the dead who lie there or consideration to the feelings of the family members or countrymen of those who died.

There are a small minority of idiots like that in every group but they are unfortunately the divers who come to mind in the worst case scenarios that are envisioned when legislation is passed.

The "difference" in many of these diver's minds between a US or British warship and a Japanese or German warship is that "we" won the war. That reprehensible attitude reflects the same kind of devaluation and dehumanization of other people and nations that leads to wars in the first place. The loss and sacrifice of sailors is something that transcends nationalism, politics or the events of the time. Their duty, honor and sacrifice is something that should be honored and remembered regardless of what flag they sailed and fought under.

As a community we need to internally police our ranks to ensure that the attitudes and predjudices that lead to anything other than honoring a war grave during a dive are not tolerated or accepted. It is that type of self regulation and moderation that ensures that abuses do not occur and that wrecks remain open to diving. If a diver desecrates a war grave, boat operators need to take steps to get the word out and ensure he or she never gets another boat ride anywhere in his or her life.
 
Boogie711:
Read my response again. The question was "Why is Pearl Different." The answer I provided was "Because the Government says it's different." I then went on to supplement that answer with the concerns about active military base et al.

If the Government DIDN'T declare it a war memorial, then there would be divers on it tomorrow.

Sorry, I missed It :wink:
 
Mr Mares:
but why enter and take pictures when you know there are human remains present.

Have you read the new book Shadow Divers. There is some writing in that book that truely paints the image perfectly; much better than I could dream of doing in a post.

But the nutshell is that you can definately penetrate a wreck that has human remains, without desecrating the graves. I in fact would argue that diving a wreck that is also a grave has the opportunity to be more respectful then to leave the site alone.

As your experience with wrecks grows, you begin to really connect with them. You start to have distinctions between real wrecks, and artificials. Why? Because there is a surreal quality to real wrecks. A connection that gives you a desire to learn it's history, it's fate, it's story. You add in the site of bones on that wreck, that just emphasizes the connection; as it's now no longer just the wreck that you desire knowledge of... but the wreck and the history of those who lost their lives.

Now instead of being forgotten, they are remembered as a direct result of the connection that seeing the remains formed.

It's hard to explain, even harder to understand. You'll understand when you understand.....
 
DA Aquamaster:
I think it is very much an issue of respect. I see no problem with visiting any wreck where people died and are still entombed as long as you respect it as you would any other cemetary.

Properly done, a dive on a wreck where people have died, war grave or otherwise, causes the diver to remember and reflect upon the events that led to the sinking and on the sailors aboard much like visiting a historical battlefield. There is really no greater honor for the dead than to be remembered in that very personal and meaningful fashion.

The problems occur when some insensitive idiot decides it's his/her God given right to plunder the wreck for artifacts, remains, etc with no concern given to the dead who lie there or consideration to the feelings of the family members or countrymen of those who died.

There are a small minority of idiots like that in every group but they are unfortunately the divers who come to mind in the worst case scenarios that are envisioned when legislation is passed.

The "difference" in many of these diver's minds between a US or British warship and a Japanese or German warship is that "we" won the war. That reprehensible attitude reflects the same kind of devaluation and dehumanization of other people and nations that leads to wars in the first place.

As a community we need to internally police our ranks to ensure that type of behavior is not tolerated or accepted. It is that type of self regulation and moderation that ensures that abuses do not occur and that wrecks remain open to diving. If a diver desecrates a war grave, boat operators need to take steps to get the word out and ensure he or she never gets another boat ride anywhere in his or her life.

This really somes up my thoughts.............................
And yes I would dive the Arizona and the Repulse......
But I don't know if I could enter them :06:
 
pipedope:
I think the whole 'war grave' thing is BUNK.
The dead don't care.

Where do we draw the line?
If we extend the idea we could prohibit almost every activity on most of the earth as there have been wars, deaths and many bodies were never recovered.

It is funny, but whole burial mounds can be dug up and moved to put up a shopping mall or a bridge. What is so terrible about diving on a wreck?

If the dead don't care, why not dive a wreck, dig through remains and take personal artifacts of the dead sailors?

Indeed, where do you draw the line?
 
Spectre:
Have you read the new book Shadow Divers. There is some writing in that book that truely paints the image perfectly; much better than I could dream of doing in a post.

But the nutshell is that you can definately penetrate a wreck that has human remains, without desecrating the graves. I in fact would argue that diving a wreck that is also a grave has the opportunity to be more respectful then to leave the site alone.

As your experience with wrecks grows, you begin to really connect with them. You start to have distinctions between real wrecks, and artificials. Why? Because there is a surreal quality to real wrecks. A connection that gives you a desire to learn it's history, it's fate, it's story. You add in the site of bones on that wreck, that just emphasizes the connection; as it's now no longer just the wreck that you desire knowledge of... but the wreck and the lives of those who lost their lives.

Now instead of being forgotten, they are remembered as a direct result of the connection that seeing the remains formed.

It's hard to explain, even harder to understand. You'll understand when you understand.....

This is the big problem I have, I have been facinated with marine history for years, I've seen film of thr survivous of the Arizona at her memorial above the wreck.......... it really gets to me!
 
pipedope:
I think the whole 'war grave' thing is BUNK.
The dead don't care.

Where do we draw the line?
If we extend the idea we could prohibit almost every activity on most of the earth as there have been wars, deaths and many bodies were never recovered.

It is funny, but whole burial mounds can be dug up and moved to put up a shopping mall or a bridge. What is so terrible about diving on a wreck?

A great many relatives do care
 
I don't have an issue with it. As long as you respect the site what’s the big deal?

I know the arguments and there are a plethora of them for and against but I think it comes down to common sense and respecting where and what you are diving on.

Most of the great divers who we now hold in high esteem, Cousteau, Ron and Valerie Taylor, Hans Hass, Stan Waterman, Ron Church, Howard and Michelle Hall but to name a few all dived “war graves” in the early days and took what they could because there were no laws governing them. Now there are laws in place, which is a good thing, but actually visiting a site where you can appreciate what happened and maybe offer a prayer or two can’t be bad.

Coogeeman
 
Just because things are don’t all the time, does not make them right. The military wrecks remain property of their respective governments under maritime law.

To quote the US Navy: “
Visitors to these sites are invited to look but
not touch, alter, enter, or disturb these remains
without permission from the NHC-UA”

Interesting sites:
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq28-1.htm

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cach...10.pdf+maritime+law+war+graves&hl=en&start=20

IMHO maritime war graves should be visited in the same fashion as land based war graves. By that I mean with respect, not disturbing or taking anything. To continue with the comparison: At land based war graves you walk on the path or grass, and do not open or disturb the grave or go inside the graves. For SCUBA divers that means you dive the wreck and respectfully view the wreck form the outside only, you do not enter the wreck.

I do not have the time to look it up now, but I seem to recall(I could be wrong) tells me it is also part of the maritime law that you do not enter the wreck of a war grave.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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