Do OEM's control who services equipment?

[SDAnderson]

Do you really think it would make a difference? I've still bought their product. If the OEM goes and gives the LDS an earfull it will point right back to me. While I personally don't care (but I've not named the LDS) the diving community has a very good grapevine and I don't want my name sullied by her.

You'll never know unless you try.

I understand the desire to remain anonymous but you've already kind of blown your cover by thumping them on the internet. If, as you've indicated, this is a general shop policy that applies across the board, they won't be able to figure out who ratted on them unless the Aqualung rep gives you away - and there isn't any reason for Aqualung to know who you are.

There may be some risk to you, though how much harm can they actually do? Meanwhile, here's your chance to strike a blow for decency, fairness and the victory of good over evil - not to mention all the divers in your neck of the woods. You already stood up, I hope you'll stay on your feet until the job is done.

Besides, you might get some cool swag from Aqualung if they feel like you were wronged and took the time to alert them to a problem dealer. :bang:

Drop a dime on them - make the call.

 

[lairdb]

The other question is grey market - defined as articles purchased outside of a certain sales area and imported into another e.g European models brought into the US. So what happens to an EU guy who comes to the US with his legitimately purchased regulator and finds that it is branded "grey market" and not covered by warranty.

There's a pair of (very common) misunderstandings here; ones that, to be fair, most everybody in the value chain does their best to encourage. awap got it right, hoosier got his bat on it, but fouled out:

• The manufacturer is not the distributor.
• Warranties are not service contracts.

Suunto is not Aqualung America. This makes sense, right? Even though Aqualung America distributes Suunto products, we get that they're different companies?

Where it gets confusing is here: Aqualung is not Aqualung America.

Aqualung is a manufacturer of dive equipment. The sell it, in huge volume, to a distributor called Aqualung America. It's Aqualung America that warranties it against defect, and it's Aqualung America that adds an additional product (what's often, incorrectly, referred to as a part of the warranty): the service agreement. Aqualung America actually does make this somewhat less opaque, by referring to it separately as a "Free Parts For Life Agreement". Again, this is a Whole Different Unrelated Thing from the warranty -- it's a second product, in the same box. (Virtually speaking.)

Dr. Steve, your EU guy didn't buy via Aqualung America. Aqualung made a regulator, sold it to Aqualung España, who sold it to a retailer, who sold it to your EU guy. Aqualung España does not offer a "Free Parts for Life Agreement", and even if they did, Aqualung España has not contracted a network of U.S. retailers to support it. The EU guy received what he paid for -- he never bought a "Free Parts for Life Agreeement". He is covered by warranty -- the warranty provided by Aqualung España, and administered through Aqualung España's dealers.

This is a fairly uniform structure through the industry, as far as I can tell.

There are strong arguments that the behaviour of the manufacturers, distributors, and retailers is anti-consumer, but those (common) arguments that are based on misunderstandings of the relationships, or misunderstandings of who is actually selling what, are castles built on sand.


(*In fact, Aqualung isn't Aqualung either, but that's a whole 'nother set of corporate relationships.)

 

[Scuba]

Until someone provides evidence to the contrary, gray market scuba products are neither counterfeit nor used equipment. Some models may be different then those normally available locally, or possibly older models, but not necessarily so. This is something you may encounter at your local dealer as well. It's important to dispell the fiction promulgated by unscrupulous businesses and innocently repeated by those not well informed. These products are all authentic manufacturer's products.

Case in point, form Aqua Lungs website:

Important Notice About Mail Order Sales of Aqua Lung Products and Warranties
Retailers that offer to sell and ship Aqua Lung life support products by mail, in response to mail, telephone or internet orders, are NOT AUTHORIZED AQUA LUNG AMERICA DEALERS. If a consumer purchases Aqua Lung life support products by mail, telephone order or electronically, they are purchasing from a non-authorized dealer, and the products will not be covered by Aqua Lung America’s Warranty. Aqua Lung America has not authorized any exceptions to its "in-store only" sales policy.

When a consumer buys Aqua Lung life support products from an Authorized Aqua Lung America Dealer, they are buying from trained professionals who can instruct them on the proper and safe use of the equipment.

Unauthorized Dealer Warning
Beware of any retailer that offers to sell and ship our life supporting products by mail, for orders placed by phone or the Internet. These retailers are NOT authorized Aqua Lung Dealers. All authorized Aqua Lung Dealers must execute a Dealer Agreement that does not allow the sale of Aqua Lung products except "in-store." Many Aqua Lung dealers advertise on the Internet, but they are not allowed to deliver our products other than "over-the counter." This is our assurance that you will receive the proper pre-sale, point-of-sale, and post-sale assistance, and that only trained and certified divers will use our products.If you obtain our product from one of these retailers, your warranty is therefore not valid and we cannot offer you the assurances of quality and satisfaction afforded by the Aqua Lung Warranty Program. If you would like to verify whether or not a retailer is an authorized Aqua Lung Dealer, please call: (760) 597-5000.

It's so comforting to know they care so much about us. Have they ever met and done business with some of these trained professionals in person? Have they ever done business with online retailers? And how these restriction assure that only trained certified divers will use the product, any more so than if purchased online, defies logical explanation. This boat don't float.

Regarding the "Free Parts for Life Agreement"

This program is limited to participating Authorized Aqua Lung America Retailers. Aqua Lung retailers are not required to participate in this program. Please inquire with the Aqua Lung retailer if they participate in the Aqua Lung Free Parts for Life program prior to bringing your regulator in for overhaul servicing. .

There is a lot more any consumer interested in such matters should try to understand by carefully reading policies and contracts intended for consumers. Not an easy task, since most of these are written in a manner indistinguishable from one where the intent is to confuse. What is stated is as important as what is not stated. How it's stated gives the advantage to one side. This is not restricted to the scuba industry by any means. Wish we could rely on the advice of a representative to clarify points, but this is not the case unless there is good reason to trust the source. Isn't the internet and the information/communication revolution which is just beginning a wonderful thing - for some.

Businesses are rightfully looking out for their interests. If consumers want to make the marketplace more favorable to their interests, they need to learn to think the same way, and act accordingly.

lairdb, thank you for the detailed explanation. Are you associated with Aqualung? Would you care to comment on distributor territory restrictions. Your post indicates there aren't any, correct?

Aqualung España does not offer a "Free Parts for Life Agreement", and even if they did, Aqualung España has not contracted a network of U.S. retailers to support it

Are all distributors free to sell to US or other non authorized retailers?

Today, both Aqua Lung International and Aqua Lung America are highly successful divisions of Air Liquide. With more than 200 employees in the U.S. and over 500 employees worldwide, Aqua Lung International now has 12 divisions throughout the world

Don Rockwell, president of Aqua Lung America, and executive vice president of Aqua Lung International

All in the family. You stated these companies do not manufacture product, do they design product in house, or is this contracted out as well?

 

[DrSteve]

Yeah I love the way that if I go in person to the store it is authorised, but if I call them and have them charge my credit card and mail it to me, then they are no longer authorised. Hilarious!

 

[lairdb]

lairdb, thank you for the detailed explanation. Are you associated with Aqualung?

Oh, no; not at all. I'm not even in the dive industry, except as a consumer -- but I am an R&D executive in a medical equipment business, so I split my time between developing products, analyzing and setting business strategy, and reading and writing contracts. Decoding the strategies and schemes, and reading the agreement texts is second-nature kind of stuff for me; I can't help doing it.

On top of that, I'm a bit of a sophist -- I enjoy a good argument. That's what bugs me about people passionately pursuing arguments that miss the mark entirely, and what compelled me to pontificate.

I picked Aqualung only because Dr. Steve started the whole argument with them, but from what I've researched, the circumstances are fairly generic.

Would you care to comment on distributor territory restrictions. Your post indicates there aren't any, correct? Are all distributors free to sell to US or other non authorized retailers?

Okay, bearing in mind that I'm really not a player in this game; I'll talk about this too.

"Free to" is a terribly imprecise term. So far as I know, there are no restrictions in law on the people to whom the distributor may sell. There are likely extensive restrictions in the contract with the manufacturer; the consequences of violating these... pardon me, make that "the consequences of being caught violating these"... may be contractually mandated penalties, risk of suit for breach, loss of future business, etc. In other words, it may be a poor business decision to violate those agreements.

All that said, my example citing Aqualung Espana was with regard to Dr. Steve's example of a travelling diver, not of a distributor violating territory agreements.

 

[Scuba]

All that said, my example citing Aqualung Espana was with regard to Dr. Steve's example of a travelling diver, not of a distributor violating territory agreements.

This is what I was interested in, since any significant and consistent unauthorized product supply in a restricted territory would very likely show up in the local distributor radar screen who would then seek to protect his turf.

Given that in my previous quotes AquaLung America is fully aware of non authorized retailers selling their goods, and the fact they do not deny selling these goods to those retailers.

Then consider that the president of one these AquaLung distributing companies is also the executive vice president of the other, and they are both owned by the same parent company, the distinction is probably nothing more than a mere formality to take advantage of laws in different jurisdictions. This would indicate the probable absence of diverse competitive entities. The product distribution channel is simply a matter of taking advantage of the most advantageous one to maximize strategic objectives and schemes, depending on perspective.

Some authorized retailers place the blame for price competition on the online vendors, attributing it to illegal or questionable business practices, because they don't realize who the real culprit is. Some are just misleading consumers. And others tell the truth.

One may be tempted to say that a company should offer the same product guarantees and any other add on services they may offer through all of their retail sources. But, different consumers have different interest. One will prefer a product warranty or add on service, while another may prefer a % discount or markup with a retailer's warranty or add ons, yet another just a discount. Options are good for the marketplace and the consumer. What I, as well as other consumers are indignant about - is the use of obfuscating shemes, and the lack of clear and unambigous disclosures.

These tatics are not exclusive to this industry or this company, and they are entitled to set their business strategy as they deem fit, within the law.

Is there an Aqualung representative on this board willing to comment on this or any other unrelated product issue?

 

[DrSteve]

*nods* My company has a couple of major customers. We sell certain products to them. When we sell to say China (which is allowed in our customer-provider sales agreement) we "have no control" if those resellers, then flood the Indian market (which isn't our territory) Ooops...sorry...our bad...can't control what our customers do. But the thing is we don't care, we make the money either way and honestly our sales to China are on an "as is" basis so we make more money form then than having to follow up with after sales support.

 

[SDAnderson]

This is what I was interested in, since any significant and consistent unauthorized product supply in a restricted territory would very likely show up in the local distributor radar screen who would then seek to protect his turf.

Given that in my previous quotes AquaLung America is fully aware of non authorized retailers selling their goods, and the fact they do not deny selling these goods to those retailers.

I don't think that it's a given that Aqualung is voluntarily selling to unauthorized retailers - indeed, I don't think that this is the case at all. Look to your signature line for part of the answer to your questions: in commerce, there is no one set of rules that functions universally. The rules differ from nation to nation and they sometimes create "issues" like the one we are discussing. The only reason we are having this discussion is because of some characteristics unique to the product: it's a high value item that is easily transportable across boundaries. The same issues would apply to the fancy European coffeemaker I bought, except that at $65 it's not worth it to European dealers to find a way to sell to me or for me to find a cheaper source than my local authorized retailer. The same would apply to a high value item like automobiles, except that the transportation costs (not to mention government regulation) make bringing a European Ford into the U.S. simply prohibitive.​

Then consider that the president of one these AquaLung distributing companies is also the executive vice president of the other, and they are both owned by the same parent company, the distinction is probably nothing more than a mere formality to take advantage of laws in different jurisdictions. This would indicate the probable absence of diverse competitive entities. The product distribution channel is simply a matter of taking advantage of the most advantageous one to maximize strategic objectives and schemes, depending on perspective.

I don't think that the "distinction" between corporate identities is anywhere near as simple, or chicane, as you suggest, though I would ask: what other purpose would a distribution channel have, if not to maximize strategic objectives?​

Some authorized retailers place the blame for price competition on the online vendors, attributing it to illegal or questionable business practices, because they don't realize who the real culprit is. Some are just misleading consumers. And others tell the truth.

If an authorized retailer believes that anything illegal is going on, they have recourse in the courts. Even if financially disadvantaged vis-a-vis the manufacturer, retailers wronged in situations like this have the power to group together (class action) to leverage themselves into a more equal footing. Likewise, consumers.​

One may be tempted to say that a company should offer the same product guarantees and any other add on services they may offer through all of their retail sources. But, different consumers have different interest. One will prefer a product warranty or add on service, while another may prefer a % discount or markup with a retailer's warranty or add ons, yet another just a discount. Options are good for the marketplace and the consumer. What I, as well as other consumers are indignant about - is the use of obfuscating shemes, and the lack of clear and unambigous disclosures.

You understand that consumers from locality to locality have different requirements, so let's move on to the salient point: I think that Aqualung (and the other manufacturers, for that matter) has adequately explained their local policy to you: if you don't purchase from an authorized dealer, you don't get free parts. You clearly understand this, so exactly what part of the message is obfuscatory or ambiguous? The fact that you may wish the policy was different doesn't mean that you're being cheated.​

These tatics are not exclusive to this industry or this company, and they are entitled to set their business strategy as they deem fit, within the law.

So why are we having this discussion? If anyone deserves the label "unfair" it would seem to be the consumer that found a way to buy on the cheap through a back door and is upset when he can't find a way to get free service that he hasn't paid for.​

 

[DrSteve]

So why are we having this discussion? If anyone deserves the label "unfair" it would seem to be the consumer that found a way to buy on the cheap through a back door and is upset when he can't find a way to get free service that he hasn't paid for.​

Reefraff - you have missed how the original discussion was started.
The original question was to the effect of - do the OEM's control whether their authorised dealers can service their brand equipment if it was not purchased from an authorised dealer (this could be a second hand reg, purchased from an authorised dealer in the EU or purchased online within the US).

No one (least of all myself) is complaining about not getting the free parts, I was complaining because my LDS refused to service my wife's reg because it wasn't purchased from an authorised dealer. I frankly wanted to find out if this was a policy of Aqualung (in this case) or whether the LDS has a problem with me. Since I had the reg serviced at another LDS (an authorised dealer) with no questions I can only assume the original LDS has a personal problem with me. Needless to say they have lost all custom from me. I'll pony up the extra for those parts and in about 4 years I'll be at break even point.

 

[StSomewhere]

I frankly wanted to find out if this was a policy of Aqualung (in this case) or whether the LDS has a problem with me.

My guess is that attitude can drive most of these types of interactions. If you come off in an abrasive manner people can and will choose not to work with you. I wouldn't bring this up except I read this post shortly after reading your post about John at NESS and sense a pattern.

OTOH, who knows, maybe it really is everybody else?