Well put LD, value added has to be part of the equation, not just blind loyalty.
Do Yo Support Your Lds??
- Thread starter CincyBengalsFan
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
I have been active in a number of threads on this subject and prabably shouldn't bother but...If you find more bang for the buck online ok. The problem is so many folks who buy online come to us, the lds, for something. These things they take advantage of are always the loss leaders. We provide services for free so the online guy doesn't have to. He gets the money and we do the work. We have air so we can fill tanks for classes and bring a few divers in the door. At the volume we pump I will never even get my initial investment back. If I run up the hours on the compressor I need repairs or a replacement in order to teach. So...For what we get for air, I would rather save the compressor time for my own tanks. A while back on another thread I calculated (for the volume we pump) what I would need to charge for a fill in order to see a two year return of my investment. It was a quick calculation which did not address ROI or some of the burden costs. If I remember it was around $25. So if all you want is air for $5, please go somewhere else. I can't afford you. Also for the same thread I figured what an OW course would need to cost to be a real stand alone profit center and that was up around $800. These numbers are from memory I'm not going to recalculate them. The current OW price works if the class generates some sales but the sales have dropped dramatically. Just three years ago we sold masks and fins to 80-90 percent of our OW students. We are down to 25-30 percent. Students now buy masks and fins online before they even call me. There goes my profit and now my class goes slow and costs me more because students have masks that don't fit and fins that they can't swim with. And I must solve these problems for free just to keep from loosing. Yes, when you buy from an lds you are subsidizing other services and that will nor doubt change over time. But...the lds can't just lower prices to match the online vendors. We have overhead that they do not that must be paid for. And the fact that the manufacturers are walking on us big time. DiveInn sells regs for less than I pay for them. I used to sell Apex when Zeagle had them. Now Aqualung has them. To sell Aqualung I have to make an opening order of $12,500. And the anual sales must be greater than that. I would have to sell Aqualung exclusively to have any chance of keeping a dealership, which is what they want. The Idea is to force me to sell their products only. Scubapro is way worse they wanted $17,500 for an opening order and then my dealership approval was going to partly based on what other lines I had in my shop. Folks if this industry represented the kind of money that the computer industry does the DOJ would leave MS alone and put some of these folks in jail. To even come close to competing with the online prices the markup does not cover the time it takes me to write up the sale let alone the cost of dealing with any problem that may come up and never mind the time I spend with you before the sale. The manufacturers are running the show not the lds. Our only option is to make every service a profit center which would mean that you would save nothing shoping online the money would just be redistributed. Ever wonder why you can service a Chevrolet without being a car dealer but to service (buy parts and manuals) for a reg you must be a dealer. So the next time you get a great price online stop for one moment and consider the philosophies of the ones you are supporting. Me I will give up diving before I intentionally use a Aqualung or SP product and the heck with dolphin safe tuna. I will stop now because I could go on and on. Most people have no clue.
If you do not support your local Dive Store(LDS). What happens when they are all gone. And there is nothing but a chater boat in the area. Where do you get air or better yet Nitrox. Then what do we all do buy us a compressor. I can not afford that. I can better afford to buy a little expensive gear from a LDS.
Well there is my two cents
Shaun
Well there is my two cents
Shaun
wetman
Contributor
Quite honestly, I dont really understand why a lot of dive shops don't go internet themselves. I haven't bought any significant gear online except some dry glove backups. Not that I wouldn't, but my preference would be to buy online from Ontario dealers, but I can't say i've been able to find any. I LOVE buying stuff online and usually have a constant stream of goodies coming to my door on a weekly basis covering every conceivable item under the sun. Its like a birthday every few days and since the orders quite often overlap, you never really know whats coming next.
Its not rocket science to get on the web any more, and I'm quite sure it would boost volume for any shop that was able to do it.
The fact of the matter is that these days I'm quite sure that there are a lot of better informed consumers for dive equipment than at any time in history due to the volumes of knowledge available at your finger tips. That fact also makes it much easier to purchase gear from an anonymous source.
I know very few people who can afford the luxury of spending more money on something thats exactly the same as what they can get elsewhere cheaper be it online, or off.
If you're afraid you cant match the volume pricing maybe there is a way to group up with other dive shops - even the competition - to get better discounts. I'm sure there are several scenarios that could reduce your costs that way.
Like a few other things in diving, I really don't get why there are such strong opinions about these things. Like in any other retail business, if you're good, you'll stick around. If not, you won't. Why is this so tough to understand?
I guess you'd also have to ask if price is the only reason. Whats pleasant about the online experience that isnt pleasant about brick and mortar - no sales people! I don't like high pressure sales. In fact, i'll go out of my way to waste their time and walk away. I like informed and helpful sales people or no sales people at all. I've been in probably 20 dive shops and millions of other shops in my life. These things ring true no matter whats being sold.
steve
Its not rocket science to get on the web any more, and I'm quite sure it would boost volume for any shop that was able to do it.
The fact of the matter is that these days I'm quite sure that there are a lot of better informed consumers for dive equipment than at any time in history due to the volumes of knowledge available at your finger tips. That fact also makes it much easier to purchase gear from an anonymous source.
I know very few people who can afford the luxury of spending more money on something thats exactly the same as what they can get elsewhere cheaper be it online, or off.
If you're afraid you cant match the volume pricing maybe there is a way to group up with other dive shops - even the competition - to get better discounts. I'm sure there are several scenarios that could reduce your costs that way.
Like a few other things in diving, I really don't get why there are such strong opinions about these things. Like in any other retail business, if you're good, you'll stick around. If not, you won't. Why is this so tough to understand?
I guess you'd also have to ask if price is the only reason. Whats pleasant about the online experience that isnt pleasant about brick and mortar - no sales people! I don't like high pressure sales. In fact, i'll go out of my way to waste their time and walk away. I like informed and helpful sales people or no sales people at all. I've been in probably 20 dive shops and millions of other shops in my life. These things ring true no matter whats being sold.
steve
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the equipment manufacturers forbid LDS's from selling online, they must sell the equipment in person, to the person buying - or they risk losing their dealership. The equipment that you are buying from diveinn, etc. is actually stuff that was either a) ordered by an LDS to be passed on to the Internet vendors or b) equipment that is actually bound or meant for overseas markets.
This is what I've gleaned from reading up on this topic. The LDS's hands are tied by the manufacturers. I buy from my LDS for everything - and no, I am in no way affiliated with them.
This is what I've gleaned from reading up on this topic. The LDS's hands are tied by the manufacturers. I buy from my LDS for everything - and no, I am in no way affiliated with them.
MSilvia
Contributor
Amen Steve. It seems to me that if "the internet" is such a menace to the LDS, the smart thing to do would be to branch out into that new market. If you aren't getting enough local business, why not start selling to folks in other parts of the world as well? Volume is good, and accessability brings customers. My nearest preferred LDS is a 35 minute drive, and I'd do a lot more business with them if I could browse the stock and place orders from my study. Besides, and again to reiterate what Steve said, I've been subjected to some really unpleasant sales pressure from a few local shops, and wouldn't go to those salespeople/owners for an opinion anymore, much less a purchase.
I know that if I owned a retail business of any sort, I'd be making online business a priority. As it is, I don't own a store, and I still make good money that way. (Not selling dive gear... don't hit me)
I don't get the us vs. them mentality... you can be both brick and mortar and online. Many of the most successful businesses are, and not necessarily at great expense.
Also, and I'll be the first to admit that my question may be based on my naive lack of dive-business knowledge, if as MikeFerrara says, "DiveInn sells regs for less than I pay for them.", why don't you buy them from DiveInn instead and increase your margins? Is it because you have to be a dealer to maintain them? There must be more to it than buy low/sell high...
I know that if I owned a retail business of any sort, I'd be making online business a priority. As it is, I don't own a store, and I still make good money that way. (Not selling dive gear... don't hit me)
I don't get the us vs. them mentality... you can be both brick and mortar and online. Many of the most successful businesses are, and not necessarily at great expense.
Also, and I'll be the first to admit that my question may be based on my naive lack of dive-business knowledge, if as MikeFerrara says, "DiveInn sells regs for less than I pay for them.", why don't you buy them from DiveInn instead and increase your margins? Is it because you have to be a dealer to maintain them? There must be more to it than buy low/sell high...
Waterlover
Contributor
I see the diving industry needs to change the perception of what they use for loss leaders. Air/Nitrox/trimix, Training and Service should be the dive shops bread and butter, not the items they loose or break even on. Because of the costs involved, air should be $10 for an 80. Air prices haven't risen in 15 years although the cost to pump it sure has. I still see $99 OW classes, Gee classes cost that much in 1980, The Industry needs to wake up and get the services in Line with other industries(skiing,flying, rope climbing) Most dives shops are run by people who do it as a sideline because they love diving not as a business to make a living from. I laugh at the industry promoting becoming a dive professional and make a career out of teaching diving. They need to promote it because of the high turnover of instructors, because people discover they have to live on peanut butter and jelly when they teach diving. I find very few good dive shops out there who can truly service my diving needs. Because of that I have my own compressor cascades of air and oxygen, a haskell booster pump, A source for my regulator parts and do my own service. Most Dive shops I have been in have no clue what customer service is. Customer service is the only way they can sell themselves and set them apart from the internet sales. Having said all that, when I open my Training facility, I intend to make it different than than any other shop out there. Gee I may even endorse internet gear sales. Another point I have if you are giving away something with value and not charging for it some how, shame on you, not the customer. One question I have is, What overhead do LDS have that internet sellers don't other than an air fill station? I'd be willing to bet Leisurepro and Diveinn have compressors on site, as they do have walk in business.Plus I know they more inventory that most dive shops.
Ken
Ken
You folks have some valid points and some of us lds are not ignorent. We are working on getting started in online sales but we still will not be able to compete in the pricing of many items. Why? because we are US authorized dealers for everything we sell. The same Apeks or Cressi reg you can buy from Diveinn for less than I pay for it I will loose my dealership if I sell it online. I have been trying to get an explanation on that one from the manufacturers for months so I can't explain it. We will sell online or mail order in accordance with the dealer agreements that we have signed. That and what we pay for the stuff puts us out of the running for alot of business. No lie, Divinn sells some products for less than any US retailer can even buy them for no matter what the volume. Going online will not solve many of the existing issues. I only have one major line that I will be able to offer online and that is Halcyon. Of course there are some odds and ends that I can offer. Everyother line forbids me to sell online. One other point is that has become clear that with the focus that is required for us to get this going we will be spending our time differently. That means that when people walk in the door they are not going to have the face to face attention from me (the owner) as I will be busy on the computer and packing boxes instead of counsiling divers for free and teaching diving. If the sales are good...how much will it cost to get me away from my well paying computer work to teach a OW class. Let someone else take the risks and do the work (teach, service regs ect.) I will jockey the keyboard selling the masks and fins to someone elses students. Wether we go online or not things in our shop will not be what people are used to and I'm not sure you or I are going to like it.
Mike
Mike
...when you get students or new customers into your store treat them like gold... they are. You want loyalty? Earn it with respect and maintain it with service. Respect your customers and recognize that they have feet... and can walk right out of your bottom line if you offend them. You can't compete price wise with the online dealers... quit whinning and wise up... compete where they can't: customer service (with all the love that entails... be a friend to them.)
Treat you customers like crap...
Get a big chip on your shoulder because you have to compete in a free market...
Demand loyalty...
And you will surely lose.
Treat you customers like crap...
Get a big chip on your shoulder because you have to compete in a free market...
Demand loyalty...
And you will surely lose.
overhead entails much more than just an air pump - you have the electricity for the pump, the property taxes on the pump, the maintenence on the pump, the employee to run the pump (plus an extra 15% of their wages going to Uncle Sam that you have to match for their taxes), the worker's comp for that employee, rent on your building, liability insurance, *air conditioning for the building to keep your future reg stored in a nice, clean, environment where the diaphram won't melt - I'll bet the online retailers store their wares in 100 degree warehouses*, accountant's fees, legal fees, fees for fees, state assessments, and these are just a few of the items that have to be taken into account.
I do, however, agree with your assessment that LDS's are going to have to start hiking rates on services that they provide - but not because "every other industry is doing it" but because they are simply going to have to do it to stay in business. I think that it will be a sad day to see rates skyrocketing, I have several of my friends that I'm trying to get into diving right now, and those $99-150 classes seem expensive to them - imagine trying to recruit new divers by saying, "oh, you'll have to drop $500-800 for the class, but hey, you can save $50 by buying your fins, mask, and snorkle online! What a deal!" I don't know about you, but I'd like to be able to recuit new divers, or this sport is going to start to die...
Sorry guys, even though I'm new to this sport, I've been on the other side of the encroachment of low prices/bad service companies before, and I didn't like the feeling of customers walking out my front door even though I was giving top notch service because "they could save $100 on a computer at Wal-Mart" and then expect me to fix it for $5 per hour when it inevitably broke 30 minutes after they got it home...
:upset: :upset: :upset:
Edited in after I cooled down a bit - when people came to me in the early days of my computer consulting business (and later my Internet provider), they could ask me any question at all about computers, even if they weren't a customer of mine, and I enjoyed talking with them about it and helping them. After seeing many of my consulting clients (and to a lesser degree my ISP subscribers before I sold the company) leaving and not caring about local businesspeople anymore - I quit caring as well, why bother - I mean if I give them advice, they are most probably going to a) ignore it and buy the Wal-Mart computer anyway, or b) harass me for help and expect me to fix everything for free. Now when someone asks me a question, I do not enjoy responding, I feel trapped, and most of all, I feel resentful. Imagine if you run into your former DSO after he's closed his shop and you ask him if he knows of any new, exciting, or fun dive spots, or if he can help you out by loaning you a reg setup...he may just feel the same way I have in that situation.
I do, however, agree with your assessment that LDS's are going to have to start hiking rates on services that they provide - but not because "every other industry is doing it" but because they are simply going to have to do it to stay in business. I think that it will be a sad day to see rates skyrocketing, I have several of my friends that I'm trying to get into diving right now, and those $99-150 classes seem expensive to them - imagine trying to recruit new divers by saying, "oh, you'll have to drop $500-800 for the class, but hey, you can save $50 by buying your fins, mask, and snorkle online! What a deal!" I don't know about you, but I'd like to be able to recuit new divers, or this sport is going to start to die...
Sorry guys, even though I'm new to this sport, I've been on the other side of the encroachment of low prices/bad service companies before, and I didn't like the feeling of customers walking out my front door even though I was giving top notch service because "they could save $100 on a computer at Wal-Mart" and then expect me to fix it for $5 per hour when it inevitably broke 30 minutes after they got it home...
:upset: :upset: :upset:
Edited in after I cooled down a bit - when people came to me in the early days of my computer consulting business (and later my Internet provider), they could ask me any question at all about computers, even if they weren't a customer of mine, and I enjoyed talking with them about it and helping them. After seeing many of my consulting clients (and to a lesser degree my ISP subscribers before I sold the company) leaving and not caring about local businesspeople anymore - I quit caring as well, why bother - I mean if I give them advice, they are most probably going to a) ignore it and buy the Wal-Mart computer anyway, or b) harass me for help and expect me to fix everything for free. Now when someone asks me a question, I do not enjoy responding, I feel trapped, and most of all, I feel resentful. Imagine if you run into your former DSO after he's closed his shop and you ask him if he knows of any new, exciting, or fun dive spots, or if he can help you out by loaning you a reg setup...he may just feel the same way I have in that situation.
Similar threads
