Does PADI frown on BP/W over "regular" bc?

[Nick_W]

As far as complicated goes, a BC from the shop's rental gear is complete. If it is weight integrated then the system is there. No choices about where to mount, what size pocket etc. No questions about wing size, tacoing etc. The jacket will float you at the surface. Also, theoretically, each student is wearing close to the same gear, so the first buddy checks are easier as the gear is 'somewhat' familiar from putting it on themselves. Now don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of BP/W, but IMHO, let's get them in the water and comfortable first. Once that happens then we can begin to coach and advise on the different types of gear. They will also have a baseline of experience to measure new styles/configurations against.

Just my .02!!

Why are these problems? I'm sure you have a good, general idea of what your average student looks like and how much weight they usually need. So you get yourself some rigs that are all exactly the same that will fit most of your students and then one a little bigger and one a little smaller. They're all wearing the same thing, except one of them may have a bigger plate than another and one may have some additional weight on them, not a huge deal. Even if I had weight integrated BCs for my classes, I wouldn't use it because its probably important for the students to learn with a baseline of a belt rather than the specific system that BC has.

The BP/W is actually a much simpler setup with far fewer bells, whistles, buckles, straps, toggles, thingamabobs, dohickies, and whatchamacallits for a student to ask "whats this do" as they yank on it and either destroy your gear or send themselves either plummeting to the depths or rocketing to the surface.

 

[c-monkey]

My shop has no problem with it. I DM in my BP/W and students ask about it often - I am more than happy to explain the differences and why I choose to use it. Most are impressed by the simplicity and streamlined design. My complete single tank rig cost under $500, the Scubapro Ladyhawk bc I replaced retails for over $700...

 

[GFOX]

I agree with Hank658: "...let's get them in the water and comfortable first." OW is an intro to diving class and is geared towards the lowest common denominator. The instructor has a limited amount of time to confirm his/her students have the knowledge and skills to keep them alive.
I see nothing wrong with everyone geared up in a similar fashion. Having the instructor wear the same equipment as the students cuts down on questions that may get ahead of their current level of training.
A proper fitting, good quality, jacket style BC is comfortable, secure, easy to use and should keep the student above water, when they are on the surface. Also, to the best of my knowledge most jacket style BC's have several places where air can be dumped from, whereas wings, or at least mine, only have 1 dump valve (which can take a little time to get comfortable with).

 

[Nick_W]

I agree with Hank658: "...let's get them in the water and comfortable first." OW is an intro to diving class and is geared towards the lowest common denominator. The instructor has a limited amount of time to confirm his/her students have the knowledge and skills to keep them alive.
I see nothing wrong with everyone geared up in a similar fashion. Having the instructor wear the same equipment as the students cuts down on questions that may get ahead of their current level of training.
A proper fitting, good quality, jacket style BC is comfortable, secure, easy to use and should keep the student above water, when they are on the surface. Also, to the best of my knowledge most jacket style BC's have several places where air can be dumped from, whereas wings, or at least mine, only have 1 dump valve (which can take a little time to get comfortable with).

So, you argue that we should keep it as simple as possible for new students, but giving them several places from which they can dump air isn't making things more complicated?

By the way, like I said before, there are tons of different wings out there. There are even some with more than one place from which to dump air. Every properly fitting, good quality BP/W I've ever seen was comfortable, secure, easy to use and kept the wearer above the water while on the surface.

I still have not seen a single compelling arguement as to why a BP/W should not be used in a basic OW course.

 

[Hank658]

Why are these problems? I'm sure you have a good, general idea of what your average student looks like and how much weight they usually need. So you get yourself some rigs that are all exactly the same that will fit most of your students and then one a little bigger and one a little smaller. They're all wearing the same thing, except one of them may have a bigger plate than another and one may have some additional weight on them, not a huge deal. Even if I had weight integrated BCs for my classes, I wouldn't use it because its probably important for the students to learn with a baseline of a belt rather than the specific system that BC has.

The BP/W is actually a much simpler setup with far fewer bells, whistles, buckles, straps, toggles, thingamabobs, dohickies, and whatchamacallits for a student to ask "whats this do" as they yank on it and either destroy your gear or send themselves either plummeting to the depths or rocketing to the surface.

Well Nick, these are all good points. Since I am not the owner of the dive shop I do not get to pick what gets put into the pool equipment set ups.

Beyond that, much is based on the students. With some students on their OW dives I have been in my TransPac with Travel wing and a single HP80. With others I have been in my BP/W and double HP100's. If a student wants to learn why not show them what goes into it and then after certification, and before buyng any gear, spend time with them helping them make the right choices for their own diving style.

Many students get certified and then only dive once or twice a year while on vacation. I dive the Carolina coasts fairly frequently and I would have to say that just from what I have seen probably over 50% of those on the boat are using rental gear. I have shown up on the boat with BP/W and either doubles or a single and pony, long hose and necklaced octo and many on the boat look at me like I was a space alien! Suffice to say that not too many outfits that rent gear for the casual family 60' dive wil be renting BP/W setups.

As to the baseline skills with integrated vs trad weight belt, I have worked with Instructors who for the first few pool sessions will use a belt and then go to the pockets. Others use just the pockets. I personally use a belt either way. My 'pool' BC is not integrated and neither are my TransPac or BP/W.
Sure makes taking off the rig underwater easier!!

 

[MN_Diver]

Wow, I go to bed, wake up, and there are five pages on this...

I didn't mean to start a war!

I guess It comes down to two things

1) Is the instructor comfortable teaching me the use of a BP/W?
2) Do I plan on buying before trying?

And as far as number 2 goes, I will probably use the provided rental equipment just to do the class, and inquire about, and try out a BP/W after certification.

I do, however, plan on taking private lessons for a few reasons, but that negates all arguments about what "the rest of the class" has or is doing.

Thanks for all the replies everyone, its given me lots to think about, and I have learned quite a lot.

Thanks,

MN_Diver


OH- someone also asked about what type of diving I plan on or foresee doing? I would have to say the standard Caribbean diving trips once or twice a year, but I live in MN and plan on taking advantage of all we have to offer... Further in the future I plan on cold water great lakes diving some of the wrecks we have, lakes (we have 10,000 of em' ya know!) and eventually ice diving. Cave and Cenote diving have always interested me as well, but those are even further down the road in terms of certification and actually doing....

 

[SparticleBrane]

A proper fitting, good quality, jacket style BC is comfortable, secure, easy to use and should keep the student above water, when they are on the surface.

Funny...
The scuba program at my university has been teaching OW using bp/w setups for several years now with no issues. A bp/w setup does all those things, but better.

Also, to the best of my knowledge most jacket style BC's have several places where air can be dumped from, whereas wings, or at least mine, only have 1 dump valve (which can take a little time to get comfortable with).

These are known as "possible failure points" and lead to confusion -- they are not needed. Having one dump valve simplifies things -- always use the rear dump unless there's a specific need to use the oral dump. This means the student always knows which dump valve to use, rather than worrying and grabbing over their shoulder, using a different hand...

 

[Nick_W]

Wow, I go to bed, wake up, and there are five pages on this...

I didn't mean to start a war!

I guess It comes down to two things

1) Is the instructor comfortable teaching me the use of a BP/W?
2) Do I plan on buying before trying?

And as far as number 2 goes, I will probably use the provided rental equipment just to do the class, and inquire about, and try out a BP/W after certification.

I do, however, plan on taking private lessons for a few reasons, but that negates all arguments about what "the rest of the class" has or is doing.

Thanks for all the replies everyone, its given me lots to think about, and I have learned quite a lot.

Thanks,

MN_Diver


OH- someone also asked about what type of diving I plan on or foresee doing? I would have to say the standard Caribbean diving trips once or twice a year, but I live in MN and plan on taking advantage of all we have to offer... Further in the future I plan on cold water great lakes diving some of the wrecks we have, lakes (we have 10,000 of em' ya know!) and eventually ice diving. Cave and Cenote diving have always interested me as well, but those are even further down the road in terms of certification and actually doing....

No matter what you plan on doing in the future, I would rent different types of BCs for a while to make sure you know what you want before you buy. I would also do that to make sure you have a future in diving. You wouldn't be the first person to get certified, love diving, go diving a few times, then never dive again. I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm just saying.....

Funny...
The scuba program at my university has been teaching OW using bp/w setups for several years now with no issues. A bp/w setup does all those things, but better.


These are known as "possible failure points" and lead to confusion -- they are not needed. Having one dump valve simplifies things -- always use the rear dump unless there's a specific need to use the oral dump. This means the student always knows which dump valve to use, rather than worrying and grabbing over their shoulder, using a different hand...

Well, to jump back over to the other side for a moment, I'm not sure I'd say a BP/W does all those things better. But I would say a BP/W will do all those same things.

 

[RonFrank]

The instructors that work at the my LDS all use Zeagle Stiletto's, so Back Inflate BC's. The student gear is all jacket style BC's.

I think from an LDS owner perspective many LDS's want the instructors to use the equipment they sell. From the teaching side, some instructors prefer to have their students in like setups. Having like setups makes it easier for the instructor to teach basic skills as if everyone had a different configuration, that would take more time to point out the differences.

There is nothing magical about diving a BP/W. It requires a weight belt if there is no integrated weight system. It is a bit more difficult to get into/out of if using a HOG harness.

From a new diver perspective I have no clue why any new diver would choose a BP/W system? They are less comfortable top side. They are expensive. They have no pockets. And they are designed to be tailored for a specific type of diving. The only two reasons I dive a BP/W are to get weight off my belt when diving cold/dry or to dive doubles.

I would highly recommend to the OP to not worry about what you dive in when getting certified, and focus on finding a good instructor rather than an OP that sells tech equipment. Once you are certified you can focus more attention on the type of equipment you want for purchase.

I just see many folks running out and getting BP/W's and they have no real reason. They parrot things they read here, but in most cases, they can not really say WHY they are diving this system over other Back Inflate BC's out there.

If you think a BP/W is more streamlined vs. a good Back INflate BC, go dive them both. I can tell you from personal experience, there is little difference in the way they dive, and I own both. My Stiletto is more comfortable on the surface. Both are comfortable UW. I need to add a crotch strap to my Stiletto as I've grown fond of that.

 

[dschonbrun]

PADI allows instructors to teach students using either setup.

It is a good idea to have everyone in the class use gear similar to what the instructor is using. It maintains a level of comfort and facilitates the PADI teaching approach.