Doing Tech+Cave on a RB?

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How so like a CCR?

I'm talking about (in a Dolphin like design) using a set orifice with a set gas mix. The adjustable part is just to be able to program for any mix (including He) you have in the tank, like 18/45 in the RB with OC deco on 50%

vs. the set 32%, 40% etc. nitrox only orifices supplied by Draeger.
 
rjack321:
When you do a dilutant flush what do you try to drive the pp02s down to?
When doing a diluent flush to check cells I want to get all three readouts to show the correct partial pressure of diluent's O2 for the depth I'm at. For example for air (about 21% O2) it would be 0.21 ata at the surface. So if I do a dil flush at 20 meters (metric units come in real handy for math involved with RB diving :wink: ) were ambient pressure is 3 ata I want them to show 0.63 ata pO2.

As the maximum pO2 that can be reached at the surface is 1.0 ata with 100% O2 (without the use of a pressure pot), and some people dive setpoints above 1.0 ata it has become common practice to flush the loop with O2 at 5m or 6m and verify the cells to 1.5 ata or 1.6 ata pO2, respectively.


rjack321:
This was the surface incident that sticks in my mind as preventable with better engineering
Actually the victim was seen changing his sensors before the dive. That is a major mistake as the sensors are sealed and need some time to generate the full output once exposed to O2. The normal "wake up" period is 24 hours. When you calibrate the rebreather, you flush the loop with O2 and wait for a stable reading. Then you adjust the display(s) to 1.0 ata if necessary, basically telling the electronics that the current mV received corresponds with that. If however this is done when the cells don't generate their full output yet the electronics get a lower value. As the output increases the electronics will keep the actual pO2 lower yet the gauges will read the correct setpoint.

IIRC there was a surface swim involved, too, so the already lower pO2 in the loop was likely not enough to sustain the diver's conciousness. Once unconcious and the mouthpiece dropped, both loop and lungs got flooded. The unit lost bouancy and the diver drowned.

While I agree that this fatality was preventable, I believe it was due to complacency rather than lack of engineering. Rule No. 1: Always know your pO2! Problem is you can't if you don't calibrate the unit properly.

The PRISM's electronics, while simple and not particulary loaded with features, are very well engineered. They are still the only ones available that track the sensor outputs, and their response to changes in ambient pressure (depth) and O2 injection. The unit is able to distinguish between 1 sensor failing (and getting voted out) and 2 sensors failing (and the good one getting voted out - slim chance of that but it has happened on other units). The HUD signals one or more than one cell failing. But as any instrument, the calibration needs to be correct.


In regards to the CO2 sensors, the Infinito has that feature, but less than a handful of them are are owned by private parties. The status of the units is pretty much unknown, at least to me. A batch was ordered by a military, not the US' though. Don't know if they were delivered or are in use, don't even know if the manufacturer still exists.

The electronics complete with deco and other features have been offered, however at the small production rate of all but two or three companies (AP, Dräger, OMG) the price per unit was prohibitive. We're talking about easily doubling the price of Meg or PRISM, a range for which there is not much of a market. Among those features were a second solenoid to inject diluent IIRC, allowing the unit to perform a dil flush if the pO2 went through the roof. As well as diver surface feature that would bring the diver back to the surface for recovery in case the unit noticed it was submerged but no longer used and/or moving for some time. So some of the technolgy is there, it just has to become feasible and available.

Bubbleseekers is one of the companies who announced a CO2 sensor, and the unit I saw earlier this year (without that technology) also had a second solenoid for electronically controlled dil addition.

The same is true for the Open Revolution project that can be found on RBW.
 
wedivebc:
I would like to jump in here and clarify a couple of things. The RB80 and the dolphin, while both SCRs are 2 different animals. The method they use to inject gas are entirely different and they are designed for opposite ends of the dive usage scale. The dolphin is a recreational breather that is well suited for long dives on tropical reefs by divers with slightly more training than a OC diver might have. The RB80 is designed for hugely long dives and is found in caves in both Europe and America going places where no diver has gone before. The benefits of the RB80 seem to be (and I am not certified to dive one) that they use gas efficiently, have huge scrubber duration and they give very definate feedback to the user in the event of a failure. The downside is they cost as much as a CCR, and don't offer the deco advantage a fixed setpoint can offer for many dive profiles.
It just seems to me when comparing semi closed RBs these 2 units should be considered independantly because they are nothing alike.

I agree completely.
 
1) Why the big conversion push with Dophins? Seems very common at least here in the ether.

2) My interest is squarely conflicted since I'm thinking dolphin-like dives (comparatively shallow <170ft, not super long) but with better mixes - 18/45, 21/35, 25/25 and similar run straight up without a set ppO2. Like an RB80 :D .

The point is more about (almost) no bubbles than super duper gas usage. Fish hate bubbles.
 
rjack321:
1) Why the big conversion push with Dophins? Seems very common at least here in the ether.

2) My interest is squarely conflicted since I'm thinking dolphin-like dives (comparatively shallow <170ft, not super long) but with better mixes - 18/45, 21/35, 25/25 and similar run straight up without a set ppO2. Like an RB80 :D .

The point is more about (almost) no bubbles than super duper gas usage. Fish hate bubbles.
Dolphins are not particularly good for deeper dives 130 - 170 since they lack loop recovery abilities and have been known to flood. I am not sure why you are so set on "better mixes" they might work well for opencircuit dives but I think you are starting to see why CCR and DIR are considered divergent philosophies. You might need to reshape your thinking about alot of what you believe if you are thinking about rebreathers. I don't know of any CCR divers using ratio deco.
 
Did not know of their flooding tendencies.

As I said earlier, when you have something that works for you (standard gasses + ratio deco) its hard to justify modifying that.

"better" is because I thought - possibly incorrectly - that dolphins and He didn't mix (to date and in stock configuration)

Really the key element for me is bubbles = spooked fish. Tech2 + an zillion $$ for an RB80 all to not scare fish??
 
Ask how many people had a caustic cocktail on a Dolphin versus other RBs. Also ask how many Dolphin divers have had issues w/ the sonic valve (the valve that "bleeds" or injects the nitrox into the loop). For what it is designed to do and what you can make it do (right, Ron), to me, makes more sense to get a KISS unless you go eCCR and that starts the same ole debate over again....

wedivebc.... you read that question on dil flush to lower PO2 completely differntly than me.

rjack321.... I hope you got your answer.
 
rjack321:
Did not know of their flooding tendencies.

As I said earlier, when you have something that works for you (standard gasses + ratio deco) its hard to justify modifying that.

"better" is because I thought - possibly incorrectly - that dolphins and He didn't mix (to date and in stock configuration)

Really the key element for me is bubbles = spooked fish. Tech2 + an zillion $$ for an RB80 all to not scare fish??
If we can go back the the car analogy from earlier post, when comparing DIR methodology and CCRs you have to reshape your whole thinking when dealing with CCRs just like a horse and buggy driver would when driving a car. What works for one may not be so practical with the other. Sure we could design a car that responded to "giddy-up" but it is easier and smarter just the be open to entirtely new methods.
 
Sorry to interrupt the current discussion, but I wasn't around for a few days. I figured everyone was through bashing me...apparently I was incorrect. :rolleyes:

CCRDolphinDiver:
SparticleBrane:
"I would recommend NOT doing cave training on a rebreather. You'll probably be task-loaded enough as it is, the last thing you need is something else to worry about." .
according to your profile, have only adv eanx and less than 100 dives, get snotty toward a guy who ACTUALLY owns 2 rebreathers and has some decent experience (I have been on a dive with the guy to 270fsw on a CCR using trimix and have the pics to prove it)
So how would you know how task loading diving a CCR is or isnt?
Translation: "Look at me! I dive CCRs and trimix so I'm better than everyone else!" :shakehead
careometer.jpg



CCRDolphinDiver:
(I have been on a dive with the guy to 270fsw on a CCR using trimix and have the pics to prove it)
CCRDolphinDiver:
Who are you trying to impress?
(emphasis by me :14: )
Who am I trying to impress? Does it look as if I'm trying to impress someone with amazing tales of my diving prowess? You said it yourself--I "have only adv eanx and less than 100 dives"; obviously I have nothing to brag about. Go over your post again, and ask yourself what you asked me. I never spouted off how much I know about rebreathers, and how many toys I have and how deep I've been...
Glad to know you've been to 270fsw on a CCR and have pictures of this monumental event.. I'll bet that plus $1.50 will get you a cup of :coffee:

All I suggested was the OP not doing his initial cave training on a rebreather, especially since he seems to be relatively inexperienced. Interestingly enough, people agreed with me. :11:
I never suggested that rebreathers shouldn't be used for caves (in fact I have nothing against rebreathers at all)...just that they might not be the best option for initial cave training. I can see the IUCRR report now: "Inexperienced diver took cave course in new rebreather setup with little rebreather experience." I'll bet people would jump all over that one, but I get condemned for suggesting that he not take a cave course in a rebreather? :shakehead Stop trying to read into my posts what isn't there.

CCRDolphinDiver:
snotty comment below:
SparticleBrane:
Oh man...I shouldn't have wandered into the scary tech rebreather forums...let me go back to all the other Quarry Commandos™!
Geez, you let someone recirculate their breathing media and they jump on a high horse like nobody's business.
what the hell are you doing commenting on this post anyway? Who are you trying to impress?
Not snotty...just sarcastic. Again, read what I put into my post...specifically the part about people being all high and mighty the instant they get a rebreather. While not all people do this, you're doing a splendid job of perpetuating the stereotype--congrats.


So why is it that I get jumped on for my post, just because I don't dive caves or rebreathers? I never once claimed to know anything about cave diving or rebreathers...but I can still recognize "too far too fast" syndrome, and that was the only point of my initial post. If you have a problem with me or my posts, take it up with me--send me a PM and we can chat. There's no need to be a complete jerk about it in a public forum; it leads to me being a jerk right back (as evidenced by this post).

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. :D
</rant>
 
The draeger dolphin as an SCR is completly unsuitable for technical diving or He mixes for lots of reasons. some of these include:, a flood prone loop, no flood recovery, a fixed IP, no data about flow rates using HE mixes, difficulty plumbing in additional mixes, did I say a flood prone loop? read my article on Caustic cocktail, a personal experience. Now, as a unit converted to CCR, the trimix makes way more sense, having been one of the original dolphin converters (some have said the most successful, based on the fact Im still breathing) I have made the system work, however I dont recommend doing the conversion unless you already have lots of time on the unit. There are better units out there to do CCR. My analogy for this is, If you had a 72 chevy nova and a few grand to upgrade the supension, drop a crate motor in it you could go racing and maybe hang with the "big boys". but you still have an old chevy and the guy with the porsche is going to clean your clock AND get the girl. Doesnt mean you are not having fun though. The MEG is head and shoulders over the dolphin in every aspect (except maybe weight, but the MINI would solve that) and having over 250 hours on the meg now to depths of 400fsw, I really cannot recommend any CCR over a meg. Cedric Verdier has now dived his meg to 653 fsw.

Rjack, you have mentioned twice a desire to dive constant Fo2 rather than constant Po2, this is completely defeating one of the best points of a CCR, accelerated deco, best mix for every point of your dive. I suggest you check out the article on RBW entitled PP math HERE Hope this helps
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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