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Donating the "primary" regulator

Discussion in 'SSI: Scuba Schools International' started by jwllorens, Dec 31, 2015.

  1. boulderjohn

    boulderjohn Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

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    I would guess it's an Air II style, hidden behind the turtle's head.
     
  2. uncfnp

    uncfnp Solo Diver

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    Of course! :facepalm:
     
  3. rick00001967

    rick00001967 Tech Instructor

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    ssi has no gear configuration standard for regulators.

    ssi "prefers" to teach passing the primary but we are "encouraged" to teach passing the primary and passing the spare second stage for entry level courses.

    here is the standard:

    VIII. TEACHING AIR SHARING SKILLS
    For entry-level SSI programs, SSI Dive Professionals may teach either method of air sharing (passing the primary or passing the alternate regulator).

    A. AIR SHARING SKILLS DURING ENTRY-LEVEL TRAINING
    Due to the wide variety of equipment configurations, SSI encourages SSI Dive Professionals to teach both methods of air
    sharing to entry-level divers.
    As dive professionals, we have an obligation to provide students with the knowledge and training necessary to dive
    autonomously with an equally or more qualified buddy in environments consistent with their training. This includes
    equipment configurations they may encounter in equipment they purchase, rent, or see on their buddy.

    B. RATIONALE FOR PASSING THE PRIMARY AIR SOURCE
    There are four common Delivery System configurations in modern recreational scuba:
    1. A first stage and primary second-stage with a traditional alternate air source (additional second-stage regulator)
    2. A first stage and primary second-stage with an integrated alternate air source and BC inflator
    3. A first stage and long hose primary second-stage with an alternate air source (additional second-stage regulator) on a
    necklace
    4. A first stage and primary second-stage, and an additional first stage with alternate air source (additional second-stage
    regulator)

    C. AIR SHARING DURING PROFESSIONAL-LEVEL TRAINING
    Since passing the primary works with most equipment configurations, it is SSI's preferred method. It is a
    required and evaluated skill for all SSI Dive Professional training programs.
     
  4. rick00001967

    rick00001967 Tech Instructor

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    my preferred reg set up for ow diving would be:

    long yellow hose for primary with short back up on necklace. pass the long yellow primary in oog situation

    however, our shop actually does nothing like this. we have the primary on a standard hose on the right side with back up on a longer yellow hose on the left side. we do discuss passing the primary in class but teach them to pass the alternate from the left. the shop has taught this method for 30 years and the boss aint gonna change.

    just a note about the "kneeling on the bottom while manually inflating the bcd"......we teach in a pool that is about 8 feet deep at the most. i try to teach my students to dive horizontal in proper position with neutral buoyancy. but we cannot hold back a student if they cannot demonstrate pro level skills.some can do it, some can't. some just need more time in the water to get it right. but i try to start them on the right path. not all of our instr do this.

    as part of the oog scenario we do teach our students how to add gas to the bcd "if needed" by having them lay hard on the bottom so it forces them to practice filling the bcd manually. i do of course discuss at length that in a real life situation you should be diving neutral and will have no need to add gas to the bcd. so i get them to do it both ways. neutral and heavy on the bottom. in both cases the oog diver will manually inflate when at the surface.
     
  5. Arus

    Arus Angel Fish

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    so we teach, or learn as students, an important lesson... just to do completely the opposite?
    maybe on a dive pro level i could understand...
    we have a different risk awareness, perception, speed in reacting to the situations and control of gear and people...
    and still there's no teaching on how exactly to act differently than what you learned in the rescue course. SSI point out few different approaches for the dive pros, but nothing very specific.

    on a buddy system, definitely not.
    Since the OW course they (we) teach you to stay away from panicked divers at all times... then students arrive to rescue level and we reinforce that. Why do you assume they should go above and beyond what they learned? Makes no sense.
    Being a buddy does not imply AT ALL what you stated...
    viceversa is implied, written and signed prior to the dives, that you assume your own responsibility for what will happen underwater. being a buddy imply that you do the buddy check, that you stay close, that you check each others air... not that you will provide gas to a panicked diver attacking you. that is not stated anywhere, i'm sorry.
     
  6. Carl_F

    Carl_F Instructor, Scuba

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    Re: rescue situation for a panicked diver and not making yourself a second victim - the whole point of teaching the OOA scenario is so that the both the recipient and donor can effectively share air without panicking. Therefore, for an OOA scenario, the OOA diver shouldn't be panicking. They may be very anxious! :fear:

    SSI Pass the Primary - I teach pass the primary like I mentioned before. And the gear at my shop is the standard shorter primary / longer alternate. I also endeavor to teach neutrally buoyant. At no time has any of my students needed to orally inflate their BC underwater while attempting the ascent from an OOA scenario. Swimming up works fine. In fact, I most often need to remind the students to vent the BC to control the ascent rate ... but I encounter this more often in OW because of the limited pool depth.

    Yes, the OOA ascent is a contact ascent and not in horizontal trim. I don't see an issue with that.
     
  7. boulderjohn

    boulderjohn Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

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    Are you saying that when a diver goes OOA in a real-life situation, it will happen while the diver is chest to chest with his or her buddy? it won't happen while they are in a swimming position and some distance apart?
     
  8. boulderjohn

    boulderjohn Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

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    I am not sure what you are talking about here. Are you saying there is no responsibility, implied or written, to supply air in an emergency? Are you saying you would refuse to do so if it were to happen?

    I don't believe I have ever seen anyone sign a statement before a dive stipulating their duties as a buddy.Those duties are largely understood as a result of decades of practice. I have taught many hundreds of OW students, and all those classes have taught that buddies share air, and students are required to practice doing that in buddy teams many times during the class. That is a pretty strong suggestion that being a buddy includes sharing air when it is needed.

    Although the duties of a buddy are not always spelled out, they have sometimes been adjudicated after the fact, and sometimes local laws come into play.
    • About 15 years ago, a DM led divers beyond recreational depth, ignored the signals that one of them was running low on air, and refused to share air with that diver when he did run out. The diver died, and the DM was convicted. (I don't recall the details of that conviction.)
    • In one of the most famous cases of this kind, Gabe Watson went diving as his wife's buddy. When his wife was in trouble, he did not successfully rescue her, even though he tried. He pleaded guilty to manslaughter under a local Australian law, and he served a year in prison.
    • A year or so ago in Malta, a British diver was charged with murder for failing to rescue a dive buddy who was later diagnosed to have immersion pulmonary edema. The basis of the charge was that as the most experienced diver in the group, he bore responsibility for the dive. (The charges were eventually dropped.)
    I'm pretty confident that if you refused to donate air to an OOA diver who died as a result, you would have some pretty unpleasant consequences afterward.
     
  9. boulderjohn

    boulderjohn Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

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    I wanted to make this point separately.

    I am not sure what you are implying here. Are you saying that a panicked diver who is "attacking you" is a dangerous situation for you, and you are justified in refusing to provide air to that diver for the sake of your own safety?

    If so....

    Which of the following do you think is more dangerous for you?
    • Providing a regulator to a panicked diver who is coming after you desperately wanting that air, or
    • Refusing to provide a regulator to a panicked diver who is coming after you desperately wanting that air.
     
    rick00001967 likes this.
  10. KenGordon

    KenGordon Rebreather Pilot

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    I wish for once these threads might consider the event from the point of view of the OOG diver. You all seem to assume the role of 'hero' rather than 'victim'.
     

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