Dr Deco (and Scubaboard) on Techdiver

[Kane(adian)]

Well, I would like to thank people like Dr. Deco, who present facts for us to read. I do not want to flame anyone here, but whenever someone cannot back things up with the appropriate FACTS, then is is probably because they simply cannot.

I am always willing to learn, and if the facts are presented, then I would consider any type of gear setup.

A self proclaimed stroke.

 

[Lost Yooper]

Rainreg, as expected, there is no virtually no substance in your response at all. I am still waiting for someone to step forward and say that what they/he are doing is wrong as far as the DIVING goes. You CAN'T. Why? Because until you have been there and done that for as long as they have been there doing it, you'll never have anything to fall back on like they do. I am not at all discrediting your accomplishments (as I don't know them), but I'm fairly certain that you, nor anyone else here for that matter, have done what thay have done and continue to do.
Sure the WKPP was around before he took over. So what's your point? He made a great deal of changes to the precedures within the organization, and now they're on top (way on top). As far as the science, the proof and the facts are shown in their success. Do you think their success is based on luck? What about all the doppler and blood test the have conducted to prove their decompression models works? I have never heard him say he "invented" extended range decompression diving, but he has done a great deal of refinement. The facts and proof are out there for those who wish to open their eyes and ears and learn about it. The facts and proof are there because they are actually out there doing and not sitting behind a desk talking about it with their Ph.D's, MD's, PADI certs or whatever (this is not a slam to any particular person, just a generalization).
Finally, as I said in my previous post. I've been questioning his ideas for quite a long time, and he has never been anything but candid and respectful in his responses to me. Of course when nothing else works, you can insult me and others by saying I/we follow him like sheep. In fact, I have spent hundreds of hours researching and have come to the conclusion that DIR will work for me. I choose to pay attention to what they are doing becuase I feel they are the best out there, and if it works for them it will work for me (and it has). I started out the same as everyone else here, but I was able to see the substance of his/their discussions rather than the BS. Why does he even bother to take the time?

Take care.

Mike

I'd like to say one more thing. This discussion has turned into whether or not the WKPP and GI have any substance in what they are doing, not if DIR is right for everyone. I do not advocate that 100% DIR is, in fact, right for everyone and right for every diving situation. I will say that the success of DIR as shown by GI and the WKPP speaks for itself and has yet to challanged.

 

[rainreg]

Hello again, I was not discrediting what (WKPP) has done and are doing. I am however trying to point out that wkpp was doing great things and have achieved great success before George came along.

Also the Doppler and blood test are merely a carbon copy of exactly what Navy Experimental Diving Unit's Canadian Counterpart has been doing for years (more than 10). They (DCIEM) have been doing these types of tests for a long time. I know, I participated in one of their Cuma Series back in 1994 (I have been diving with the u.s. navy for 20+ years. I have been a Saturation Diver. (Which Qualifies us to dive to 1000'.) Deep long dives as well as many other dive protocols is our business.) If you would like to view my other credentials feel free to visit (www.detahq.com) go to staff and well, there they are.

The Canadians up at DCIEM (Defense and Civil Institute of Environmental Medicine) conducted 17 Series of Diving starting in November of 1991 through December 1996. The Report was completed in September of 1997 (DCIEM No 97-R-68). This was the Development of HEo2 Decompression Tables. So where do we go from here? Again I have provided you with direction as to the real pioneers / developers of what you continue to say is George's, when in fact it is not.

My problem is with people that lay claim to the ideas; principles, development and other things that are really not theirs at all! If you want the facts just ask. Be specific I can fill another 10 pages of this post with facts to prove my point but that will waste time and space on this issue.

If you spent so much time researching then I have to question where? George and his so called library? If you want the facts state them. I can provide you with the information you require, but it seems to me that you don't know what to ask for anyway. On the other side of the coin what are your Qualifications / Claims to fame? When was the last time you volunteered your body to Diving Science as I have for the last 9 years? If you really want to know the answers then ask away.

Mike Rainone
U.S. Navy Saturation Diver

 

[Lost Yooper]

"Hello again, I was not discrediting what (WKPP) has done and are doing." I suspect that after all the BS, you and I will agree more than disagree. There's nothing else to gain here, so I'm moving on.

Take care.

Mike

 

[rcohn]

Lost Yooper,

What substance has there been in any of your posts? I have certainly missed it.

So far you've told us

• GI3 and the WKPP are great, I believe every word they say without question.
• You are very impressed by 7 years with no deaths. I know divers you would consider "total strokes" who have been diving for 30 or more years and they aren't dead. At least not yet.
• GI3 is nice to me when I play the loyal cult member and ask him how to be a better DIR diver. Tell GI3 you want to add an extra D ring or need to butt mount a light. Then show us the kind and considerate response you receive.
• GI3 said about Dr. Deco

  If this guy had any contribution to make to this game, we'd know about it. What he has is the party line that does not work and is why we see these accidents. Wake up and smell reality.

  As I've asked before, what are the DIR guys doing on the board? Just trolling for new converts? There are no answers for you here, GI3 said so.
• You ask

  I am still waiting for someone to step forward and say that what they/he are doing is wrong as far as the DIVING goes. You CAN'T.

  I've made comments on aspects of the DIR system that I consider to be less safe for recreational diving than some reasonable alternatives. You (and svs3) have ignored them and continue to ask the same question over and over.
• You ask

  What about all the doppler and blood test the have conducted to prove their decompression models works?

  Where have these studies and the results been published? Have they been subjected to a peer review process? Have you seen the actual results and evaluated the quality of the study? Or has GI3 merely cavalierly referred to these studies and the superhuman results he has achieved.

• I do not advocate that 100% DIR is, in fact, right for everyone and right for every diving situation.

  When did it become ok to be sort of DIR? It is not after all the "perfect system"? Or is GI3 wrong? If GI3 is wrong about one issue he is fallible and may be wrong on other aspects of diving. When did GI3 tell anyone that is it is ok to pick and choose the parts of the system you like? When did you become experienced enough to have better judgement than GI3? Being sort of DIR is like being sort of pregnant. Since you are admitting that you aren't 100% DIR, you must believe that the system is imperfect and YOU have better ideas on how to dive than GI3 does.

• The facts and proof are out there for those who wish to open their eyes and ears and learn about it. The facts and proof are there because they are actually out there doing and not sitting behind a desk talking about it with their Ph.D's, MD's, PADI certs or whatever….

  Every stroke who is still alive and diving has the same “facts and proof”. Personally I need a bit more, staying alive underwater with modern gear and training is just too easy for that to be the sole criteria.

And finally,

I was able to see the substance of his/their discussions rather than the BS.

that’s a good start, now if you can learn to see the flaws, errors, and deceptions as well, and abandon the mindless hero worship, you will begin to really understand something. Maybe then you will no longer be “Lost.”

Ralph

 

[omar]

This is for my benefit and elucidation and is not to be construed as argumentative....

Rainreg I am asking for documentation on the shortcomings of the DIR philosophy. Specifically Decompression schedules and deep diving protocols.

Also you mentioned that you could direct me to the sources (keepers?) of this info. Well where is it?

omar

 

[Lost Yooper]

Ok, here we go again. When all else fails, turn to insults. I see your game, but I won't bite. Let's see if I can address some of your points -- keep in mind most of this will be stuff I have already addressed:

1. True to the first part. I have questioned it and have been treated with respect.

2. True. I believe it's quite an accomplishment considering their type of diving. Apples to apples here?

3. Another insult. I'm not a loyal cult member of any group. I'm just another wahoo that enjoys diving.

4. I've already addressed GI's personnality. I'm here to share my experiences with others and to have fun. If you don't want people who dive DIR here, then say so. If you don't want my opinions expressed on this board, then come on out and say so. I have never insulted anyone (that I can remember anyway and certainly not on purpose).

5. I missed that. Sorry. I can say (in general terms) that I haven't found a recreational environment that my configuration doesn't do excedingly well in.

6. I don't have that info. Sorry.

7. Like I said, I don't advocate any of that. I belive DIR, as used by the WKPP, has its merits and rewards.

8. ...and that's your perogative.

9. And for the final insult of the day (so far)... "the mindless hero worship, you will begin to really understand something. Maybe then you will no longer be “Lost.”" I just had to repost this so that everyone who reads it will see what you're really about. Congrats!

Have a great day!

Mike

 

[rainreg]

Hey Omar, Thank you for your request, I have a few questions so I can Provide you with the proper documentation.

1. I would need to Know What type of Decompression Schedules are you looking for? Deep Air? Mixed Gas? Trimix? HE02?

2. As far as Deep Diving Protocol Which ones? 300', 500', 650', 850', 1000' ?


In reply to your request for the shotcommings of the Dir Philosophy most of them would be spelled out in the above Protocols. But off the top of my head here it goes:

1. There is no Official data anywhere that proves the Dir Requirements for specific Equipment (Ie. A singular Manufacturer of) works or performs better than other similar if not identical equipment made by another company.

2. As I have stated in many posts before the DIR philosophy is not their invention, they or GI3 has used tried and true practices from other Agencies (U.S. Navy, NOAA, and others) and claim them as his own idea. That is what I have a problem with he borrows from those organizations and then turns right around and bad mouths everything they stand for to the point of questioning the credability of them yet by re-packaging them under his shell they are flawless and should be followed to the letter of the law.

3. The DIR may have done some good things but the way they go about it they want all the credit especially for someone elses ideas and practices. The "requirements for specific equipment made by specific manufacturers only leads us to question his credability (Ie. GI3 owns a portion of Halcyon) get the message...

4. The keepers of information are called DTIC (Defence Technial Information Center) they are on the net and the address is as follows: http://www.dtic.mil/ check it out.

if you need additional guidance I will help.

Mike Rainone

 

[Lost Yooper]

Mike,

Could you elaborate on number 2 and 3. You could very well be right, but can you shed some light on specifics?

Also, it was my impression that Halcyon and EE came into being so to provide the group with quality gear that met their specs.

Thanks.

Mike

 

[rcohn]

Lost Yooper,

Once again, what do you have to offer here? Numbers below correspond to your numbers.

1. you will be treated with respect when you ask why something is done, suggest an alternative and you will be flamed.
2. What does apples to apples mean?
3. You question nothing, believe every word they say, and accuse those who present alternative views of attacking DIR divers. How would you classify yourself, as an objective observer?
4. You seem to have no problem with the attacks on Techdiver, including the attacks on Dr. Deco and Scubaboard. You and the other DIR guys are very brave challenging us here, how about defending the board on the Techdiver list? Not an issue of personality here but one of content. GI3 and others on Techdiver say there is nothing of value here, the DIR guys on this list remained silent. If GI3 is always correct, why are you here? Why listen to strokes?
5. You haven't read the thread before commenting and you still ignore my direct comments on safety issues of the DIR system in recreational diving, comments which you and svs3 asked for in the first place.
6. I'll assume your conceeding this point.
7. What does this mean? If you deviate from pure DIR you must believe you have a better way or prefer to dive suboptimally. Is DIR imperfect?
8. No comment, another point conceeded.
9. Coming from someone who got things rolling with the crack

   The facts and proof are there because they are actually out there doing and not sitting behind a desk talking about it with their Ph.D's, MD's, PADI certs or whatever

   , and defends the Techdiver list you have a very thin skin. Adding

   (this is not a slam to any particular person, just a generalization).

   doesn't prevent it from being an insult.
   This seems to be another DIR trait, they love to attack everyone (go back to the start of this thread) but howl at the slightest swipe at them whether real or imagined.
   
   Ralph