Dr Deco (and Scubaboard) on Techdiver

[svs3]

All,

Since I am currently at work, time constraints will prevent me for responding to all the posts at a single time. But I will do my best with what time I have. Even if it takes serveral post.

First:
An apology to all associated with SSI. I made a mistake in mentioning SSI in association with the Solo Diving cert. I am sorry and as bradymsu stated SSI has a thankful strong stance against such a bad idea.

Bradymsu:

Many of the concerns you express about DIR I share as well.

Several of your concern can broadly be catogorized as classic messenger/message conflict. I guess the only real response I have to that one must be willing to separate the wheat for the schaff if one thinks the message is worth the effort.

Your point about the use of computers for rec diving within ND limits is well taken and one that I can only relate a couple obseverations to. First, in a good week I might get in 5-6 spead out over two days - typically a mid-week day and a weekend day (despite all I must still work and support my family) so I don't do a whole lot closely spaced repetive diving (i.e. liveaboards or an instructor teaching) so that advantage is not one I really miss. Second, I believe the use of a bottom timer, spg, and tables, whether US Navy, NOAA, or tables I cut myself, has made me a better and more knowledgable diver and far less likely I believe to accidently violate NDLs. Also, I have seen multiple times were buddy team become handicapped as far as NDL diving and SITs go because one 'puter is far more conservative or liberal that the other.

The rigid mindset you reference is concern as well, however some of that rigididity(sp?) is the result of there own diving experience and finding that alot of this does actually work as advertised. That being said I will offer no excuse for the way some are treated by the online DIR community because there really isn't any. The flip side of that, I guess, is that if that rattles someone then what would happen if they suffered a failure of the secondary first stage while breathing off thier secondary second because of a primary first stage failure? But your point about the history of rigid mindsets is valid and one I would tend to argee with.

Scubababy,

I have made 50 some-odd post to this board and no where in them do I say, intimate, infer or imply that this board is "worthless" far from it. Maybe you should read a few of my posts and find out for yourself. My post have been postive and constructive in tone even when in disagreement. I believe this board is one of the few places that this thread could go on for as long as it has without erupting into a rec.scuba/techdiver flame war and I will do my best to keep it that way. While Dr. Cohn and appear to agree on little with regard to diving, I second his opinion that this thread has been informative and polite and I will do my part to keep it that way.

Sorry to end it here but one must eat.

Take care,
Sam

 

[ScubaBaby]

But I cant be doing with this anymore.
-abby-

 

[scubakat]

Note to self...

Casual conversation topics to avoid.... Religion, Politics, and now DIR.

-kate

Go dive Everyone, & gear up with what works for YOU!

 

[large_diver]

I agree with Ralph -- even though these conversations sometimes get heated, they are very helpful to all of us. Esepcially for newer divers considering the "AIR path", these conversations/arguments help get more information out there (pro and con), which is a GOOD thing.

 

[large_diver]

DOH, that would be "DIR path"......

 

[Lost Yooper]

Here goes nuttin'. I must be the only guy around who has had nothing but good discussions with Irvine. I talk to him in private e-mail every other week or so (for the last 3 years or so) questioning DIR, decompression and what not, and I have NEVER had anything but civil discussions with the man. He has never failed to answer my questions, however basic to him, and I don't know why he does it. It must be because he's an @$$hole. I have great respect for all of his accomplishments and contributions to the sport of diving but like the rest of you, I agree his presentation is far from civil in open forums.
It is my opinion, that until someone can step up to the plate and prove that his philosophy, gear selection, and tactics are out right wrong for virtually any type of diving, then his opinions will remain valid (for the most part). He has a track record that is far from touchable from any other group of divers (as of yet) to fall back on that NO ONE can effectively argue against. The best they can do is try to yell louder than him -- which doesn't happen often. In the end, he has done it (the WKPP has done it), and they haven't -- end of story. If other extreme tech divers can't get in the ring with him and effectively argue with him and do what he has done, then do you really think that sport/recreational divers are going to stand a chance?
There, as the only real supporter of GI on this board, I expect to see a fair amount of flame from all you guys. Fortunately, it's only flame. George Irvine doesn't need supporters or defense from people like me. He has the track record that no one else has been able to touch, and whether anybody likes it or not, that makes him an expert. It sure as heck doesn't take a Ph.D or an MD or a scientist to become an expert in diving.
Flame away, but keep in mind that I haven't insulted anyone here. In fact, most of what has occured here has been out right predjudice against an entire group of divers who choose to dive DIR -- of which only a very small minority are vocal and sometimes rude. Take a darned good honest look at yourselves before you bash an entire group of divers.

Mike

 

[large_diver]

LY -- swooping back in to "stir the pot" just when the dust was starting to settle on this thread ;-)

A couple of points I wanted to answer with --

First of all, I am a rec diver but am a general supporter of DIR. I don't agree with 100% of the DIR philosophy, but many of their recommendations for improving diving safety make sense to me.

So -- I'm on your side.

That being said, I think you have to understand where some of the "anti-DIR" posts on this thread are coming from. They're not saying George is 100% wrong, they're not saying DIR divers are idiots.....it's all about the way DIR is presented.

First -- take the name "Doing It Right". That in itself is enough to piss off every diver who's been diving for 5+ years. By telling other divers "you're doing it wrong", many will stop listening or respond in a negative way.

Second -- I don't know George, and have never conversed with him directly, but he's obviously got some issues with his interpersonal skills. He seems to take pleasure in being a bully and putting other folks down. Most normal humans don't appreciate being treated like that or seeing others being subjected to it. Also -- one size can't fit all...e.g., even George seems somewhat less than 100% committed to a long hose set-up for OW diving.

http://www.wkpp.org/images/pina_equip/OW_rig2_r.jpeg

Third -- I have to agree with Dr. Cohn's post about scientists. I agree that WKPP's track record is beyond reproach, but to some extent, that is like saying that anyone who hasn't had a diving accident is a good diver. Science is about forming a hypothesis and then producing data or test results to prove or dis-prove it.

Anyway, this is meant as a constructive response, not a flame. Other constructive responses welcome.

 

[Lost Yooper]

LD, it looks like you and I are in agreement in vitually every point you made.

First point: I agree the name is provoking, but I don't care what they call it. As a matter of fact, I like Hogarthian better. I know several old timers out there that have decided to relearn and change their ways. In fact, I dive with one every week. I am continuously learning and relearning from these guys. As far as people bashing DIR divers on this list, it's been pretty blatant and clear.

Second point: I agree that Irvine is far from civil, but he has always treated me with respect (and I him). DIR isn't 100% about the gear. That is an open water, recreational, single tank rig. It's simple, clean and the configuration doesn't deviate much from a set of doubles. I think this is one of the misconceptions that DIR has. DIR is not exclusively for tech divers and is not so ridged as to say you need doubles and a long hose for every type of diving. Take what you need and keep it simple is, in part, DIR.

Third Point: At some point, I think their success has to be recognized. I mean, they haven't had a death since Irvine has taken over seven years ago. I can't say with certainty, but I suspect their philosophy was reached by somewhat scientific standards. When they started out, they tried different gear, configurations, and techniques (kind of like a hypothesis). Of course, they added and subtracted and refined and even developed their own gear to make it work (testing). They only way they can prove it works is to do as they do -- safely blow away the rest of the crowd with accomplishments (the results). I'm not a scientist, but it seems to me that they have "proven" their DIR philosophy will work in the one of the most extreme diving environments currently being dove.

You and I certainly agree for the most part, and I really enjoy these type of discussions. I respect your mild natured commentary and hope others follow your lead.

Take care.

Mike

 

[BetterLateThannever]

That's funny. Let's see if we don't talk about religion, politics etc., we have eliminated those subjects that have the most impact on our lives.

In other words...let's only talk about the trivial and uncontroversial. BORING!

 

[rainreg]

This is for Lost Yooper


Well it seems you really did not read the previous threads on this post or you would have already realized that:

1. George is not wkpp and that wkpp was around before George ever showed up.

2. The Philosophies you refer to as George's, are really not his they are and have been sound principles and practices the U.S. Navy, NOAA, and several other agencies have used long before George was ever a diver.

So we are at the last for this post. George is George; nothing new just a different package. There are however some procedures he touts that have absolutely no Scientific or Quantitative studies to prove them true (or otherwise). If you want the facts, there are mountains of them, just ask. Otherwise you can continue to follow him like sheep and prepare yourself. If you ever decide to question his principles or practices you will then meet the real George and suffer the wrath.

Safe diving and "Just the facts"

Mike Rainone
U.S. Navy Saturation Diver