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face-up underwater without a mask

Discussion in 'Snorkeling / Freediving' started by malipython, Jul 8, 2019.

  1. Angelo Farina

    Angelo Farina Angel Fish

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Parma, ITALY
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    malypython, what you describe is two different problems:
    1) water flows in your nostrils when being face up (it happens to me, too, and is quite common!)
    2) you have problems equalizing your ears without a mask
    Lets talk of first problem, equalization of pressure in ears, mask, and other cavities in your skull would require a whole book for being discussed properly.
    It is true that some people can stay underwater facing up without any apparent problem, and they say that water does not flow in. But they are a minority!
    Most other people, as you (and me), have larger nostrils, wide-open nasal duct, and water flows in easily just for gravity. It floods completely the nasal cavity, and this is quite unpleasant. It can easily go pass the soft palate and come into the mouth. People who don't suffer of this problem simply do not understand it!
    There are very few solutions to this: squeeze your nose with fingers when facing up, use a nose pinch, insert wax in your nostrils (this is what athletes of synchronized swimming usually do).
    If you nasal cavity has been flooded by water, then it is a quite bad idea to equalize you ears: you open the Eustachean tubes, water will flood also the medium ear, and it is very easy that this will cause a lot of medical problems.
    So I simply recommend you to avoid that water floods your nasal cavity. If your nostrils are like my ones, exhaling is not enough, you must close them with fingers or with a a nose pinch.
    But the final point is another: why do you want to swim underwater without mask or nose pinch in a face-up position?
     
    John C. Ratliff and Sbiriguda like this.
  2. dcvf2

    dcvf2 Nassau Grouper

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Belgium
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    Hi Angelo
    It’s what Musimu ( and other before perhaps?) have done in 'no limit' down to 209m…'Air Cavity Flooding' => Patrick Musimu - Wikipedia.
    But surely you know it?
    In quarries or in sea during AIDA exercises no problem.
    Down in CW ( head down) at 17m, turn head up, without mask the pressure created to compensate during the descent is still present in the nose…back to the surface OK without any water in my nose.
    Of course, head down in CW without mask it’s different and compensation??

    And concerning your ’Salvimar Noah Verde’
    Did you treat this mask as I described at #49 ?
     
  3. Angelo Farina

    Angelo Farina Angel Fish

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Parma, ITALY
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    Perhaps I was not clear on what I mean for "head up". Not just "looking up" while surfacing, but reversing head and body completely, so that the chin is higher than the front and the nostrils face directly up.
    In that position, typical of when swimming horizontally in a pool with your back against the pool's floor, and looking for the next vertical wall of the pool, the nasal cavity floods whatever air pressure you have inside it, as air flows out and water flows in. At least this is what happen to my nose. I see some others not having the same problem, possibly due to smaller nostrils and tortuous nasal duct.
    And I still think that is not truly healthy to allow water to flood the internal cavities of your skull, despite what mr. Musimu was doing. If the water is not super-clean, the risk of infections is always present.
     
    John C. Ratliff likes this.
  4. Jcp2

    Jcp2 ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

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    You’re incorrect if you think the nasal sinuses are sterile because it’s snot.
     
    chillyinCanada likes this.
  5. lowwall

    lowwall Barracuda

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: Chicago
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    Start upright and make a soft humming noise with your mouth closed. Keep humming and tip your head all the way back. Humming with your mouth closed forces a small, but continuous, stream of air out your nostrils and should keep any water from coming in.

    If this works, then there is no physiological reason you can't learn to do this with slight positive pressure instead of the humming. if it doesn't, it doesn't. It's hardly a big issue.
     
  6. Angelo Farina

    Angelo Farina Angel Fish

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Parma, ITALY
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    With my nostrils, this works only if I blow a significant air flow, which depletes my lungs in just 3-4 seconds...
    At that point I have to inhale, and while inhaling of course I cannot blow through the nose simultaneously, and water flows in.
    I know that with clean sea water this can actually be healthy, washing out all the garbage trapped in, but when the water is muddy and not-drinkable, and not salted, I would prefer to avoid it goes inside my internal cavities, and gets trapped in the medium ear. I suffered of some otitis when young and it was quite aching!
    I agree that the whole problem is not really a big issue: I did learn how to avoid this happening, either keeping a proper attitude of my head when the mask is off, or closing the nostril with fingers when needed. Or blowing through nose, but, as said, this works for me only for a very short time, due to the big nostril and straight nasal duct. We are not all made the same...
     
  7. lowwall

    lowwall Barracuda

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: Chicago
    345
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    Humming is a useful trick because it ensures continuous airflow. Most of the time when people have your problem it is because they stop exhaling at some point while they are facing up.

    Are you sure you are not exhaling through your mouth at the same time? That's really the only physiological way for water to enter your nasal passages when you are exhaling even a small amount through your nose.

    The ability to select whether air goes to the mouth or nose is called soft palate control. The good news is that the muscles of the soft palate can be trained and strengthened by exercise. Take a look at the following. This is from a quick search, there is certainly more out there:

    - Soft palate - Wikipedia
    - Water up the Nose — Boost Coaching
    - Water Up Your Nose
     
  8. Angelo Farina

    Angelo Farina Angel Fish

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Parma, ITALY
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    The same happens to me in apnea, when of course the mouth is closed, and there is no chance to release air through it...
    If I keep just a minimal air flow out of the nose, some water flows in when being truly with nostrils up. There is a critical air flow which blocks entirely the water, but it is not minimal. If the lungs are completely full (say 4 liters) such a critical airflow depletes them in a few seconds, perhaps 5 or 6, so, albeit useful when doing some revolution or other exercise, it cannot be used for swimming the whole length of the pool with the back against the pool floor.
    And of course if breathing from a scuba system, there is the moment when you have to inhale, and at that point, of course, you cannot simultaneously exhale.
    I did learn how to swim keeping the head at an angle, and with such an attitude I have no problem. But doing so I cannot look forward for avoiding collision with the end wall of the pool... In the end, better to wear a mask when swimming underwater with the bell up.
    Indeed, I see that not everyone has the same problems, other divers apparently have tiny nostrils and the water just do not enter so easily.
     
  9. malipython

    malipython Angel Fish

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    Angelo,
    I want to learn it, because a human being is known for being keen on learning new things and evolve... I think this is something we shouldn't argue about.
    As for the physiology reasoning of yours, I have acquaintances who USED TO get water up their noses in that position, but according to them it just stopped happening somehow due to an instinct that kicked in either by practicing knowingly, or all by itself. But none of them had to practice this thing for more than a week or so. Most of them learnt it in an hour or never even practiced knowingly... I have practiced for 8 months and I could never find balance, because it feels like "there is a hole in the air" and water goes through, no matter what I do.
    As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I had extremely tortuous nasal ducts. I could barely even breathe through my noses. I had a septum deviance correction surgery and nasal polyps removal. My nose became almost perfect. I could breathe through my nose 1000 times better and the septum is straight.

    I practiced this thing before and after the surgery as well. I think it is very important to state because after the surgery my nose had completely different physiology. However, the surgery had almost no effect in how my nose acts underwater... And here comes my reply to lowwall that will tell the point.

    Lowwall,

    Yes, I've tried humming too, several times. Water floods my cavities despite humming... I can control my soft palate, it is not a problem. As for not exhaling continuously, yes, there is a possibility that if you are trying to exhale really slowly, then you may accidentally stop exhaling either by closing your epiglottis unwillingly or simply reduce exhalation to the point where it is no exhalation. But humming should work, as it provides continuous airflow, plus whenever I practice this crap, I SEE a continous bubble stream coming out of my nose, yet I feel my nose getting filled up Geeee.
    I have no problems regarding swimming or freediving or whatever water related thing except for being face-up underwater without wasting my air. Same rule applies to me that Angelo mentioned. If I don't blow a bubble stream with a certain strenght through my nose, air doesn't keep water out of my nose. But with that certain strenght I waste my air in a short time. Believe me, I've practiced for 8 months both before and after my nasal surgery, I literally tried everything that can be found on the internet, lol. I even read somewhere that if you snort a little bit of water into the beginning of your nasal passages, then it'll help to form a seal so that water doesn't go further down, but even that never worked for me. One of my friends from Florida said that he can do it in pool, but in summer in a lake that has algae in it, he feels like there is a hole on one side as well. So maybe it has something to do with allergy and how the mucous membranes act in water.
     
  10. Angelo Farina

    Angelo Farina Angel Fish

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Parma, ITALY
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    I am practicing this since 45 years, not just 8 months. And no results, the problem is still there.
    As said, I learned simply to avoid to stay in that position underwater, or to close the nose with fingers if i have to do it.
    In the end, what's the real purpose of staying underwater without mask facing fully up for more than a couple of seconds (which can be accomplished exhaling appropriately)?
     

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