Filling double LP 50's from a HP 120

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formernuke

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I just don't log dives
I used to know these equations but I've long forgotten them.

If you have a set of LP50's do a dive and them use a transfer hose from a full HP 120 what kind of fill will you get on the doubles?
 
Assuming you're starting the LP50s completely empty and 3450psi in the hp120..

P1V1=P2V2

3450*120=P2*220

P2=1880 psi
 
Assuming you're starting the LP50s completely empty and 3450psi in the hp120..

P1V1=P2V2

3450*120=P2*220

P2=1880 psi

220 for the volume of the lp 50's? Where did you get that? Would explain why when I used that equation I got an impossible answer
 
Can I play devils advocate and add that if you use a normal transfill whip and don't equalize the 50's to each other,
First fill will be
3450*120=P2*170
first 50 will fill to 2435psi and leave the 120 at 2435psi,
so second fill will be
2435*120=P2*170
second 50 will fill to 1718.

If you have a few bottles, probably want to scavenge from the lowest pressure bottles first before moving up the chain.

In this case it's pretty easy to guesstimate, two 50's=100, little less than half the 120, but most dive shops don't give good fills even on high pressure tanks, so your 120 probably only has 110 cuft anyways. Assuming you are starting from empty on the 50's and you equalize all three, each will have about half the pressure you currently have in the 120. Please remember to always analyze for o2 and co as well.
 
I'm thinking of going double 50's for rec.

My shops do good fills but a set of 50's with a 120 to refill for dive 2 takes up less room in the car than 2 50 sets and I already have the 120. So do I sell the 120 and get 2 50 sets or get 2 50 sets.

As for nitrox when I dive it the shop will do them.
 
First fill will be
3450*120=P2*170
first 50 will fill to 2435psi and leave the 120 at 2435psi,
so second fill will be
2435*120=P2*170
second 50 will fill to 1718.
That is a creative approach. You could then normalize the 2 50s to each other and end up with almost 2100 between them rather than 1880. Start with 50s that aren't completely empty and you're better off too.
 
I used to have a HP120 which I would transfill into the LP50s. It worked ok. As @saxman242 has said, you are equalizing pressures of tanks.
Practically, it worked well if the LP50s were not below 1000 psi. But for top offs, it was great.
 
Assuming you're starting the LP50s completely empty and 3450psi in the hp120..

P1V1=P2V2

3450*120=P2*220

P2=1880 psi

Hi guys,

sorry but the calculations upthread are incorrect. Yes, P1V1 = P2V2 using your notation. This is writing conservation of mass, however the V's here refer to the physical volumes of the tanks, while in your calculation you have used the rated capacity of the tanks in cf, which is not an actual volume, but the number of moles of gas contained in each cylinder. If the rated pressure of the tanks was the same, you could do that and find the correct answer. The pressure you derived would be that obtained after transfilling an empty HP100 from a full HP120.
Here the rated pressure of the double LP50's is 2640, and their physical volume is larger than that of an HP100 cylinder. Therefore, more gas will transfer to those tanks than to an HP100, but the overall end pressure will be lower.

If V1 is the volume of your double 50's, and V2 that of the HP120, the equation used should be:

P(V1+V2) = P1V1 + P2V2 where P is the final pressure of all tanks after transfilling, P1 is the pressure in your double 50's after dive 1, and P2 is the pressure in your HP120 before the transfill.

Hence the final pressure is P = (P1V1+P2V2)/(V1+V2) = P1*V1/(V1+V2) + P2*V2(V1+V2)

So you have to determine the percentage of the total volume of the combined tanks made up by each tank.
The actual volume in liters can be found from the manufacturer's specs, but you don't need it here.
V1 is proportional to 100/2640 and V2 is proportional in the same manner to 120/3440.
So you'll find that V1/(V1+V2) ~ 0.52 and V2/(V1+V2) ~ 0.48

The message here is that 52% of the total gas amount combined between the tiny doubles and HP120 will partition to the double 50's, while 48% will remain in the HP120 after equilibrium is reached.

The final pressure P is P = P1*0.52 + P2*0.48.
Assuming you start with empty doubles (P1 = 0) and a full 120 (P2 = 3440), your doubles will be refilled to P = 1651 psi, and not 1880 psi as calculated above.

An easier way to think about this is to think in gas amount (cf) instead of pressures. When you transfill, you will have 52% of the combined gas available in your tiny doubles after the operation. So for a practical case scenario, if you come back with 20 cf of gas left in your doubles after dive 1 (a little over 500 psi), and have approx 110 cf of gas available in your HP120 (about 3100 psi, which is more realistic than 3440 given than fills aren't always perfect and even if they are after cooling down to room temp, once at the dive site in cold winter conditions, pressure will drop), you would have for dive #2 an amount of usable gas equivalent to 52% of 130 cf ~ 67.6 cf.
Now whether or not that is sufficient for your second dive is for you to decide.
If you brought a second HP120 (or even an HP100), you could do a second transfill which in this case would yield (assuming 110 cf usable again in the second HP120) a total of 52% of 177.6 cf ~ 92.35 cf, which should suffice, but then you have to lug two additional large tanks with you and you are using another 2 fills for your second dive.

If as hinted above, you close the isolation valve on your manifold and transfill the LP50's one by one from a single HP120, you will have ~ 35% of the total gas in each LP50 after transfilling, which allows you to transfer a little more gas overall and is a bit more efficient. In this way, you would be able to transfer ~58% of a full HP120 to completely empty doubles vs 52% otherwise.

In my other example above, with 20 cf left after dive 1, and 110 cf available in your HP120, you would be able to refill to ~72.8 cf your tiny doubles doing it sequentially before reopening the isolator valve, vs ~67.6 cf doing it in one go, thus gaining about 5 cf of available gas for your second dive.
 
Thank you for the better explanation Phoque. Thankfully even if our calculation was a little off, it's not crazy wrong. I also appreciated that you reran the calculations showing the pressures assuming he's not starting from empty.

Most of us would kill for baby doubles setup like this. I have 5 LP50s and no bands, and I don't use the 50's as often as I thought I would. But, when I do use them, they are cave filled.

I looked up the details on the tanks from DGE and DRIS, and in addition to being 4" shorter than an hp 120, they are supposedly 3.8 lbs lighter when full, and 2.5lbs lighter when empty. Usually you think doubles will mean less weight, but in this case it might not. Also keep in mind you will have 1 more VIP expense annually, and 1 more hydro expense every 5 years, vs. buying 1 more HP120. But, you can sometimes find the older LP45's for $100 out of hydro. And you can still get another HP120, the support argument if you have a better half that needs one, is that then you could top off the lp50's to full pressure instead of almost full. More supporting arguments: one of you can use the lp50's while the other uses hp120, but then you might need another lp50 set or a third hp120 to refill the lp50's off of, or you can break them down for sidemount diving.

In the end you end up getting lots of tanks anyways. I have an extra LP108 sitting around I don't know what to do with, but if I keep it, then using it to transfill gas for things like lp50's or rebreathers is not a bad use. I use LP27 for inflation and suit gas on my optima and I very frequently top it off from other bottles instead of getting it filled at the shop, even at rated pressure its tons of gas. You can never have too many tanks!
 
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