Fourth Diver this year dies at Gilboa

[RadRob]

Please show me where you understand anything of what Padi teaches in their pro training, IDC's and what is required of them in an IE.

We're not talking about who is sueing whom, who teach what and who doesn't, we're discussing in this instance what an agency requires from an Instructor to teach, and why they attempt real hard to ensure your class is the same a the next guys, which in a huge majority of the cases, is nothign more than what Padi wants them to teach, which is to say only what's in the book. As youy say, they can't even be judged in a pass/fail idea since it's not required material.

This might be too much of a stretch for you to understand, I am not sure.

But we are discussing who is teaching and what and the legal aspect of such.

The fact that Padi doesn't want you to add, move around or otherwise deviate from their "Institutionally and educationally validated" ROFLMAO system tells me it IS their fault, and what's more any instructor doing what you propose is considered out on a limb from a legal aspect as far as Padi is concerned.

It was stated that you cannot add anything to the course that Padi doesn't approve. I said that's BS. You may not be able to pass/fail them (which I disagree on that point also, as an instructor, you have the right not to certify anyone you feel isn't ready) but you can still teach it.

More rules and regulations are not what we need in all areas. When teaching others, you should have experience and be qualified to do so, thats where we need more regulations. I agree that fast-tracking an instructor is not right. For me to dive from a boat, while drifting, at night should not require me to spend the money for 3 stupid cards. That's where we don't need agency regulation but rather dive op regulation. Like government laws and laws left for states to regulate. Don't let Big Brother(agencies) regulate where the State government(dive ops) can do so.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The one thing that is NOT being discussed is what happened in this accident. But these threads seldom do that.

Of course we aren't discussing what happened in this accident. How could we? There was no eye witness because she either swam off on her own or the group swam off without her. BTW, ask me which I really think is really more likely?...and this IS IMPORTANT!

The preliminary medical examiners report, as I reall, was drowning. So...she ran away from her buddies or they ran away from her and then she spit out her reg and breathed water rather than air or nitrox. There just is no mystery here to solve and aside from the generalities that lead up to these things there isn't anything to talk about.

Does anyone really think that she or her buddies really came up with some new, unique and exciting way to screw up? No, they did the same things we see every day only they didn't get as lucky.

 

[MikeFerrara]

It was stated that you cannot add anything to the course that Padi doesn't approve. I said that's BS. You may not be able to pass/fail them (which I disagree on that point also, as an instructor, you have the right not to certify anyone you feel isn't ready) but you can still teach it.

Many of us, assuming that we have something to add, do so. Even though the agency warns us about the legal risk we are confident that it makes the diver safer and reduces risk more than it increases risk. Regardless of what PADI standards say, it wouldn't bother me at all to stand in front of judge and jury and make my case.

Where you are wrong is in saying that "as an instructor, you have the right not to certify anyone you feel isn't ready" Per PADI standards, that decision must be based on PADI standards. If a student meets the PADI standards requirements for the course and pays their bill, a PADI instructor is obligated to certify them and has a contractual obligation (with PADI) to do so. Failure to do so is grounds for action on the part of PADI QA. If you want chapter and verse from the standards, I'll look it up for you. It's spelled out pretty clearly.

 

[RadRob]

Not being an instructor, nor wanting to be one, are you saying that if students are able to do the requirements, but not proficiently and are not, in your opinion, ready to go out on their own, that you have to certif them anyway? When paying instructors to teach at my facility, I never required them to pass anyone who wasn't ready. I never heard Padi require that either. I may have just been blessed with a forgiving Padi associate, I don't know.

 

[jtivat]

Not being an instructor, nor wanting to be one, are you saying that if students are able to do the requirements, but not proficiently and are not, in your opinion, ready to go out on their own, that you have to certif them anyway? When paying instructors to teach at my facility, I never required them to pass anyone who wasn't ready. I never heard Padi require that either. I may have just been blessed with a forgiving Padi associate, I don't know.

Nope they need to "have mastery" of all the skills PADI lays out for us. So if they can remove replace and clear there mask on there knees they pass I can't say now you have to do it mid water and have perfect bouncy while doing so.

So if they pass all of PADI’s standards but I still don’t think they are a good diver I still must pass them.

 

[engdiver]

The SCUBA certification process could be done more the way that the FAA licences pilots. It requires not only skills training but also a minimum number of hours practicing these skills.

To obtain a license a person is also required to pass a flight test with an FAA examiner.

I would not want the goverment to get involved in this. I think the agencies could adopt this approach with an independent third party examiner.

 

[scubapolly]

Polly ... Mike does require redundancy now, at least based upon the deep dive form and the conversation my instructor and I had with him.

I haven't dove the deep side in over a year, and therefore haven't looked at the dive plans, but what I remember was those things were listed and said they were recomended (but not required). Also I remember something that said "or diving with an instructor"- I think that is a crutch.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on the deep plan form, as I said it has been a while since I have looked at it.

 

[scubapolly]

The SCUBA certification process could be done more the way that the FAA licences pilots. It requires not only skills training but also a minimum number of hours practicing these skills.

To obtain a license a person is also required to pass a flight test with an FAA examiner.

I would not want the goverment to get involved in this. I think the agencies could adopt this approach with an independent third party examiner.

There are time requirements, but they are pretty low IMO.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Nope they need to "have mastery" of all the skills PADI lays out for us. So if they can remove replace and clear there mask on there knees they pass I can't say now you have to do it mid water and have perfect bouncy while doing so.

Actually, in this case, you have PADI by the you know whats. They losely define mastery and I think you can make students clear a mask midwater. Nothing in the standards defines mastery as having anything to do with kneeling.

On the other hand, there are no "trim" reqirements and no buoyancy control requirements for the tour portion of the OW dives so you would NOT be able to NOT pass a student for not being "trimmed" or not exhibiting good technique during tours. I have to add a "but" here too because I would bet that if I told PADI that a student looked very uncomfortable to me during a tour and I did not want to certify them, I think they would back me up. Think about this. If I tell PADI that the person is dangerous and they demand that I certify them AND that person gets hurt...who is going to be called? I have a lot of opinions about PADI but they are not stupid. I don't think they know much about diving or teaching diving but they know a heck of a lot about law and business.

I know very well what is in the standards but it is not my experience that PADI uses it to stop an instructor from teaching a quality class. Why would they? They like good classes! They make PADI look good too! My experience is that that the wording of the standards permits poor quality classes to meet strandards and PADI lets the instructor assume the responsibility (remember that word "mastery") and puts the money in their pocket and lets you do the same.

You see how this works? If you teach a "good" class, it's on your dime because a class is only worth what the lousy classes are worth...just because that's what you are competing against. The students don't know the difference. All they know is how long it takes and how much it costs. PADI gets the same amount either way...the price of a PIC and the materials. You get whatever you can squeeze out and whatever you can make selling equipment. If you teach a good class PADI gets the $12 for the PIC and trhe $50 for the materials and they look good. If you teach a bare bones class they still get the $12 for the PIC and the $50 for the materials AND you take the risk if "mastery" ever comes into question. They are pretty well protected and the money is the same either way...except that more students mean more sales and they give instructors awards for certitying large numbers of students...I have my 100 certs in a year wall certificate"! LOL They like it if you take risk and they profit. Who wouldn't? Cronin knew what he was doing! When a guy is VP of the largest equipment manufacturer AND co-founder of the largest certification agency, what do you think is going on? You sell lots of certs, materials and AL equipment and you take all the risk. What could be better?

So if they pass all of PADI’s standards but I still don’t think they are a good diver I still must pass them.

One more time, you have some room in what defines "mastery" but you would never get away with requireing them to master a skill that isn't on the list.

 

[Tollie]

You see how this works? If you teach a "good" class, it's on your dime because a class is only worth what the lousy classes are worth...just because that's what you are competing against. The students don't know the difference. All they know is how long it takes and how much it costs.

Mike you really have nailed it.

It does make you think. I'm begining to think about only working with students who have already been certified. The risk is really stiff and the pressure to bend here and there is strong.