Halcyon Prouduction, DIR, and ironic facts of life

[Jarrod]

Hello Folks,
I try to sample the various lists as much as possible to see what is new in the world of diving. A friend mentioned you guys were beating on us pretty hard leaving me a bit curious. In reading the various lists I often long for more time because addressing each of the questions, points, and causes for concern, while trying to learn from your comments is a valuable experience. Unfortunately I rarely have time to get involved. The various lists also seem to feel that encouraging attacks against manufacturers is a good thing but some feel that getting a response should be considered promotion. I apologize if anyone considers this promotional. That is truly not my intent.

Obvious promotion aside, most of these discussions seem pretty healthy. I am a bit surprised at a couple people mentioning with fever that we are so obviously arrogant. In the past I assumed that was mostly a by product of list aggression and directed more at DIR. I am pretty confident that nobody can point to myself or our representatives as having been arrogant or callous, yet these tensions seem focused at Halcyon and not DIR. In any case, I do not feel I am an arrogant person but I am one that has a firm opinion and a solid belief in doing things a particular way. I am perfectly happy to live in a world in which others make different choices but I strive to be clear and communicative about my preferences. I am sorry if that appears arrogant to some.

I will try to carve out some time to address the DIR/Halcyon/GUE issue in another note because of the points I was able to read I think that one is the most substantive. Before I leave I would like to address a few of your questions and comments.

95% of Halcyon product is made in High Springs, FL. We employ about 40 U.S. workers that are very happy to be working. We pay them more than they can earn anywhere in the area because we want them to be happy and we want them to care about the products they make. We buy at least the vast majority of our material from U.S. companies but, to be perfectly honest, I am not sure if they are supplied raw materials from overseas. I would bet that most of the fabric from most companies comes from overseas at some point in the supply chain. Our inflators currently come from a U.S. company but supply and consistency are such a nightmare that we have made our own (not yet shipping). Pretty much everyone's inflator comes from overseas even if they believe that is not the case.

Some of your comments about Halcyon are ironic because all this time we have been working to keep good quality while building here in the states and competing on a large scale with companies that immediately go overseas. Why do they do this? It is not simply because it is cheaper. It is because despite all the posturing very few people really care. Look around your home, at your clothes, your watches- heck even many of your American flags and you will see what I mean. Even if you do care and even if you think it is from the U.S. many of the materials are from overseas. And then how far are we going to take this issue? Does the metal itself need to come from the States, the thread, the dye . . If a company built everything here in the states but used fabric and an inflator and almost certainly that corrugated hose and OPV from overseas should you boycott them? Those that are at the leading edge of this argument for U.S. goods should be careful with that assertion. Regardless of your opinion on this issue I merely wanted to put out that it is a vast oversimplification to say that x product is made in the States and y product is not; like it or not, in the end, most people really just don't care that much. Often it comes down to posturing and politics. Take us as an example. We suffer all the inconveniences and expense of building in the States and most of you think that we do not. How ironic<G>

As a company we stand behind our product. I guarantee that personally. We do have to make difficult choices from time to time. For example, the gentleman that complained about the wing with "obvious staple holes" that Halcyon would not warranty. I am working with very limited information and I do not remember being consulted on this case (though it is possible) but try to imagine it from our perspective (or any manufacture for that matter). It is a second hand wing that went through our distribution chain and has a staple hole from shipping. But we don't use staples in any of our shipping. Actually we don't use them for anything but stapling paper. Despite my sympathy should we warranty this? I wonder how many of you in the exact same situation (including the man that is upset) would warranty a wing in these circumstances. Either way, however, it pains me to see unsatisfied customers. That is not what we are about and I do take it personally. As a result we often warranty things that we are doubtful "should" be covered. Based upon the dialogue here that is not really proving to be a good investment but it still seems to be the right thing to.

I sincerely apologize if this appears promotional. It seems to me this list is full of some very zealous people promoting a new company with all their heart. That is a special thing. I am very grateful for the same sort of support that Halcyon receives from others so I don't begrudge them for a moment. Yet, I think that having perspective about issues like longevity etc is sensible. Comparing the track record of a few dozen wings used over a few weeks to thousands produced over more than ten years is at best problematic. Either way DIR is about more than Halcyon and about more than GUE. Yes, we have initiated some defense of the term DIR because of the rampant misuse of this name. It is not our desire to control the term DIR in its entirety. I have believed for years (really I have) that DIR would become the most popular and talked about issue in diving but I did not anticipate the degree to which people would intentionally misrepresent DIR for their own use. I expected some people to do this but underestimating this was clearly shortsighted or too benevolent or probably both. Either way this is all a good thing even for those that reject DIR entirely. Love us or hate us, purchase our products or don't but the catalyst represented by DIR has been and will continue to be good for diving equipment and diver training. GUE was never about training for all divers any more than Halcyon strives to be about equipment for everyone. These organizations are about creating an option for divers in an industry that is in decline. It is about getting people to ask the right questions, assert sensible challenges, enjoy greater safety, and above all to have more fun.

Best,
Jarrod

 

[Mverick]

Hmmm...

No arogance or name callin... I'd say he's a business man... And a good one at that...

Takes a bruisin on the boards and doesn't revert to telling people off... Makes me think he's actually a pretty decent guy.... Explains his side in a rational way...

I'll keep buyin if you keep makin... Deal?

I'm wondering about your new singles wing... But it's only available in the UK.... It seems....

 

[MASS-Diver]

Thanks for posting here. I just wanted to say that I've enjoyed diving withmy halycon gear very much and I've been pleased with both the items that I've purchased from my local dealer and those I've bought from EE.

I think it's pretty cool that the president of a company is willing to post on a BB like this and I think it adds alot to SB.

My only complaint about GUE is that I wish you would put the DIR videos back up for sale.

 

[Genesis]

Jarrod, you and I did talk about the wing with the staple holes in it. Personally. Nor am I the only one with the problem, as it turns out - there are others here on this board that have had the same thing happen, with wings brand new from your authorized dealers, and Halcyon has in some cases covered them and in others not.

You can claim that you never use staples in your shipping cartons, but if so, how did the holes get there? Remember, I'm not alone in this, and the carton in which the wing in question was shipped to me was taped, not stapled. It certainly didn't happen in transport to my location. The original owner never inflated the wing or had it in the water - that much was instantly obvious (you'd have to intentionally pull a vacuum in it to get it to lay flat as "originally manufacturered", and this one was when I received it.)

If I was the only one who this had happened to, I might believe that the seller (to me) was a simple liar. But I'm not, as has been posted here. In fact, its become somewhat of an infamous thing from what I can ascertain in the discussions here.

That incident and the way you and your firm handled it left such a bad taste in my mouth, even though I was not the one who "ate" the bladder ultimately (the seller did), that I don't know that I will ever buy anything from Halcyon again.

In point of fact, I sold that wing to another diver (post-bladder replacement) without ever getting it wet myself.

Now that I am intending to actually USE a doubles wing here in the next few months, I will almost certainly buy a different product. In fact, I recently sold my Pioneer 36 as well.

That is not because I don't like the way your doubles wing is made, nor was I particularly unhappy with the Pioneer (I hadn't had any problems with leaks, as some have.)

It is because of how I was treated by Halcyon.

I foresaw a possibility that my Pioneer MIGHT leak at some time in the future. I foresaw that if it did, I'd likely eat it. I had no other expectation, given that I had already been told to eat one, and have the credit card charge to prove it from Extreme Exposure, directly after our personal conversation last winter.

There are some things that are very difficult to erase in a customer's mind. Being treated poorly because you bought an unused item from another customer, who purchased the item from an authorized dealer, only to discover it damaged before either of you had your hands on it, is one of them. Being charged a huge portion of the cost of an entirely new wing for the inner bladder alone (the replacement was $156!) is another. What's the entire wing cost - $338 at retail? That is clearly an intentionally punitive price point - half the cost. It made clear exactly what kind of treatment I would receive in the future if I needed some kind of part or piece for a Halcyon product and it was deemed "out of warranty."

Service parts are not considered a customer service - they're considered a profit center.

That spoke volumes about how I could expect things to go in the future.

Speaking of which, why are you afraid of competition between your dealers? Halcyon is one of the names most mentioned when it comes to "price at our 'FTP' or we will cut you off" games.

Exactly what is there to fear when dealers compete for business?

I'll leave 'ya with these two for openers, and hope that some kind of constructive - and public - dialogue can ensue.

 

[Uncle Pug]

I have a garage full of Halcyon stuff... and I've had a few glitches... but everything has been taken care of pronto by Halcyon.

Maybe one or the other of us is the exception... or maybe it's just because I'm so purdy.

 

[Genesis]

there are some people who have had no problems, and then there are those who have.

There appears to be no way to know which camp you will fall into ahead of time.

That is the problem.

Look, that bladder didn't cost them $156 to make. Its what I paid EE, but their cost was perhaps $30 on that piece (it came with no hardware in it - both the dump and corrugated fitting had to be transferred - it was just the seam-welded piece of material that comprises the bladder itself. I'm being charitable here - there is likely something like $5 worth of material in that thing.) If they had looked at this as a service-related issue, and sold it to me for, say, $50, not only would I have considered that very reasonable but so would have the original buyer (who ultimately ate it - I gave him the option of simply taking it back from me, but when HE tried to get it taken care of with both Halcyon and his LDS, they both refused HIS request, and HE had the original receipt!)

As it stood both of us were left with a VERY bad taste in our mouth from the experience. The Pioneer stayed with me simply due to not having another credible choice.

That, a month or so ago, changed, and the Pioneer and re-bladdered Explorer 55 went up on eBAY the day I dove the Oxycheq.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

JJ,

Welcome to Scuba Board!

SA

 

[Custer]

I had a #27 Pioneer, and sold it to a friend. He commented that there was a pinhole leak in it somewhere, and it would deflate in about two days (I never saw it).

He contacted Halcyon for some idea of a proper repair, and Halcyon promptly replaced it, free of charge, even though it was second hand.

No receipt was needed or anything.

This was within the last year.

 

[Aquamaniac]

This bit shoulda been in Bold.

GUE was never about training for all divers any more than Halcyon strives to be about equipment for everyone. These organizations are about creating an option for divers in an industry that is in decline. It is about getting people to ask the right questions, assert sensible challenges, enjoy greater safety, and above all to have more fun.

 

[Dryglove]

I was also a victim of the infamous staple holes in my pioneer wing

At the time i found this board i was diving the standard recreational setup using a scubapro knighthawk with an air2. I had twinjet split fins and a dangling console.

After reading this board i learned of DIR and a very different style equipment configuration and diving style than i had ever seen or heard of.

At first i purchased some of the less expensive halcyon products to complement my current gear configuration such as lift bag, p-valve, etc.

The more i read about the BP/wing setup the more i was intrigued and had to have one. So i finally made my move and ebayed my knighthawk. I called Lloyd Baileys and ordered me a compltete pioneer 36lb wing set up and a 7ft hose and 22" hose. The package was going to arrive before my vacation in which i had several boat trips planned and reserved.

I received my package in about a week and was looking at all my goodies. This was nothing i had never seen before. I grabbed the wing and orally inflate it and almost immediately it deflates. My wife points out that there are two holes in the wing. It perfectly resembled staple holes. it wasnt like paper staple holes but the larger type of staples.

Almost immediately i think oh crap i have boat trips reserved and no wing. I call lloyds within 10 minutes of opening the package and discovering the holes.

Lloyds tells me to mail back the wing and they will send it back to halcyon. I explained to them that was all fine and dandy but what about my trip that was virtually ruined now. They said they had no more wings in stock so there wasnt nothing they could do.

I contacted Lloyds a few days after they received the wing to see if a replacement had been sent. They informed me they were having problems try to get halcyon to replace the wing. Halcyon told lloyds it had to be damaged in route to me by ups and that we needed to deal with them. There was absolutely no way the wing was damaged by ups as the box was in prestine condition.

So finally i had enough and contacted halcyon personally. I do not remember the person i talked to on the phone. They informed me that all wings are tested before they leave there and that it was an issue between me and lloyds. lloyds wasnt about to claim responsibilty for it so i was basically ass out.

Now i was really mad. I went on vacation and had to use crappy rental BC's that cost me like 15 bucks per day. After i got back i emailed halcyon a very nasty email and told them what i thought of the gear and how i had sold my current gear to adopt theirs and got screwed. I baiscally told him everything lloyds had relayed to me.

Lucky for me Dave Sweetin promptly answered the email and said he would check into things. He emailed back and told me they had replaced the wing and it was awaiting pickup by lloyds as they dont ship to lloyds as they prefer to pick up as they are fairly close. So halcyon calls lloyds and gives them an earful and lloyds calls me and tells me halcyon never told them anything of the sort. To this day im not sure what really happened between the two but i finally got my wing replaced 4 weeks later. One of the two were telling some long stories and i have no idea which it was. Both places blamed each other. At that point i was just happy to get my wing and didnt really care and still dont.

The whole thing left a very bad impression with me but i dont hold no grudges against either place and still do bussiness with both of them.

Even though i will never know if it was a customer service problem with halcyon or lloyds i am still gun shy of halcyon a lot of times due to my initial phone contact with halcyon. Luckily dave sweetin made things right and restored some of my faith in halcyon.

Not to long ago my bp/wing fell about two feet to the ground puncturing the wing in two places from the bp. This was from the weight of the bp only with nothing else attached. This is in no way halcyons fault but i was suprised at how easily the bp punctured through the wing in two places.

No dissrespect to you JJ but next i will give the oxycheq wing a good lookin over before i buy one and monitor their usage here and customer relations here. I also see halcyon has come out with a new wing with an internal bladder that many of us are dying to know more about.

The problem with halcyons customer service is that it depends who you talk to. The first guy basically said i was ass out but dave promptly fixed the whole problem. Other than that my halcyon gear has been flawless and i own my fair share of it.

I just think you guys need to get on the same page concerning customer service. The first single phone call almost caused me to ebay every piece of halcyon gear with disgust. Luckily i ran across dave and he fixed the problem. It just seems weird how some people get excellent customer service and others get crapped on.Word spreads quick on these forums on who was done right and who was done wrong.

But i will give you this i am totally hooked on BP/wings and cannister lights. You guys no longer own the market like you used to and there is some stiff competition now. There has been word of halcyon employees defecting to OMS and a more recent favorite that no longer works for you. I believe his name was charlie although i may be wrong. This person was a favorite and is no longer a source. I have no idea what happened to him and you can share the details if you think its any of our bussiness.

Anyways ill close here and to let you know you do make some great gear that i do enjoy. I did have a bad experience but that could happen with anyone. I watch the boards very closely and see what products people are using and how the customer service is. You guys seem to be all over on the customer service issue. Some guys love you and others hate you. I have to rate myself somewhere in the middle and sometimes worry about buying your products if i ever have a warranty concern cause i have no idea where i stand depending on who i talk to.