Halcyon & Santi's policy: we perform drysuit repairs "even without prior approval"

[Rainer]

Terrible policy and response from Halcyon. If they don't refund the charge, definitely continue pursuing this with your credit card company. It's completely inappropriate to undertake a $400 repair without consulting you as to whether you want it, can afford it, what materials you'd like used, or offering any evidence of it even leaking (especially in light of you already having had a professional look it over prior to shipping).

 

[Effervescent]

Steve Gamble has a godlike reputation when it comes to drysuit repairs. If he said your zipper was fine, then it was fine. When it comes to the word of the only "famous" drysuit repair guy I've ever heard of vs some employee at a large corporation... The choice is obvious

So... Halcyon said they were giving you the zipper for free but charged you anyway?.

Yes, Steve Gamble is a great guy and I trust him with my repairs. The only reason why Gamble sent my drysuit to Halcyon in the first place is because I confirmed twice that the boots would be replaced under warranty.

However, Halcyon and Extreme Exposure misunderstood the Santi's warranty policy. Since my suit was there already, I told them to replace the boots anyway because it's the middle of the diving season in the Northeast.

6 weeks later, I get a call that my suit is fixed. Finally. However, they replaced my zipper too. No warning whatsoever. Gamble was shocked by Halcyon's unethical actions.

Halcyon has reluctantly agreed to remove the charge but the dispute is ongoing with the credit card company.

It's a pity that statute specifically says motor vehicle repair shop. I thought we had other consumer protection laws similar to this for "everything" in Florida on account of all the elderly retirees but maybe I'm mistaken.

I'm not a lawyer so I can't say whether there are other consumer protection laws in Florida. However, again, I'm just really disappointed that their actions border on legal vs. illegal... Then Mark Messersmith, the COO of Halcyon, had the audacity to say: "Normally, most customers are excited when they receive these types of proactive service efforts."

No, Mark. They would not.

 

[boulderjohn]

I just remembered that I had something similar happen to me years ago, and it took a while to figure out what really happened. I had a Whites Fusion, and I sent it in to Whites to have a leak repaired. When it came back, it had new wrist seals, for which I was charged a great deal. Not only that, they had replaced the "one size fits all" conical seal with the kind that has to be sized to your wrist. They felt too tight. I sat next to the representative of the shop when she called Whites for an explanation. She was told that the seals absolutely needed replacing, and the ones they had put in were the proper size for me. She asked him if it made sense to him that a dry suit size L/XL would use size small wrist seals, but he insisted they were correct and just needed to be trimmed sufficiently.

Frustrated, I went to the Whites Forum on Scubaboard and pretended to be just asking hypothetical questions about wrist seals. I was given very helpful answers--those kinds of seals are never trimmed, and a person my size needs a size large wrist seal. When I relied by telling the full story, they had me send the suit back to get the proper seals.

After a while, the truth became obvious. Some technician had made a mistake and replaced my perfectly good seals with seals intended for a different suit. Rather than admit the error and fix it, they tried to cover it up and get me to pay for their mistake.

 

[kelemvor]

Even if the zipper was defective, it's a little disappointing that they wouldn't cover it under warranty like they did the boots.

BARE replaced my drysuit zipper last year under warranty... I guess some brands just have better warranties than others...

 

[Effervescent]

After a while, the truth became obvious. Some technician had made a mistake and replaced my perfectly good seals with seals intended for a different suit. Rather than admit the error and fix it, they tried to cover it up and get me to pay for their mistake.

I think this is what happened here. If it was a mistake, then fine. They should have said "We're sorry for the trouble. We made a mistake so you do not have to pay for it."

Instead, Halcyon has now told me three times that their official policy is that they can do whatever they want with your drysuit:

Mark Messersmith, Aug. 16: "On occasion we will continue to perform needed work and product we believe best for the customer even without prior approval."

Mark Messersmith, Aug. 13: "Sometimes this includes performing needed services without prior approval."

Orie Braun, Aug. 11: "We have seen this on a few cases and our technicians make the repairs as needed."

I just find this to be quite unbelievable.

 

[Stoo]

So I am curious, and perhaps the OP could clarify...

The suit is still under warranty right? So if the zipper needed replacing, why wasn't this covered by warranty (I understand it wasn't leaking...)

The reason I ask is that SANTI, like DUI moved to the T-zip and they had a huge failure rate. Halcyon here in Canada replaced the zipper, under warranty, without hesitation. Which was awesome...

When I first read the original post, I thought that they replaced a T-zip proactively, under warranty, and at no cost, so I couldn't understand what the complaint was. To charge you for the new zipper, which wasn't leaking, and without your authorization, is BS.

This gives rise to my other question... if the boot repair was under warranty, why did they even have your credit card?

Edit: Hang on... You said:

"Mark never apologized for the mishap. Instead, he said "enjoy your new zipper at no charge" insinuating that I perhaps am the one conning them.

I am currently in the process of disputing the unauthorized zipper replacement charge with my credit card company."

Did they charge you or didn't they? If he said "enjoy at no charge", then presumably what he has done is replace a T-zip which is probably going to fail, with what, a YKK?

 

[Brandon]

First, it really sounds like Halcyon / EE tried to provide you with excellent service in repairing your suit; I don't doubt their intentions there. A loaner suit, at no charge, for the lengthy duration of the repairs is almost unheard of from any other drysuit dealer or shop. Same with free shipping and weekend service. That's all totally awesome.

Secondly, I think it's also important to remember that you believed (based on information you had from personal experience and an expert, Steve Gamble), that your zipper did not require repair and that only your boots needed service. I also understand EE/Halcyon's perspective that, during the course of those authorized repairs, they discovered leaks in the zipper, which may or may not have been apparent to you. Regardless, all drysuit divers frequently make choices about which leaks they'll live with, which they'll repair themselves, and which require expert repair.

The bottom line here is that the decision to make a significant and unexpected repair (replacing the zipper) should always fall on the customer. That's just good business sense; which may also have the force of law depending on jurisdiction. To protect themselves from the fraudulent business practices we've seen in other industries, a consumer should expect nothing less and should not allow dive shops to take a free pass on this.

All that said - if I knew my zipper needed to be replaced, I would have paid for it (as I suspect you would have). But it seems to me, that after 6 weeks (with a rental suit in hand), there was no real rush other than Halcyon/EE's desire to get their loaner suit back and a shared motivation to wrap this lengthy repair up. If an employee had time to replace a drysuit zipper, on the weekend, without additional compensation, they also had time to make a two minute phone call to inform you that the expected repair costs had tripled.

Alternatively, if a premium brand wants to empower its employees to make costly repair decisions on their own, they also need to be willing to eat the cost should the customer disagree with that decision. Not engage in 7 pages of backhanded, responsibility dodging e-mails. What you were told essentially amounts to Halcyon/Santi, as a premium brand, also expects to have premium customers, and you've fallen short of their expectations. They're going to give you what you want/deserve/should have expected, but they're going to make you feel crappy for it. That really doesn't sit right with me, and it goes against the image of Halcyon / EE, EE's employees and MM that I've previously had.

It's a bad policy, and it needs to be changed. If nothing else, have the customers sign an authorization form that makes this policy clear. I can tell you that I won't agree to it, on principle, and that I'm going to ask to be informed of any repairs above what I was expecting. I'll make sure I'm easy to contact, and I'll probably pay for whatever you recommend, I just need to know first. That's not me being a pain in the ass, that's just me being a responsible consumer.

In the first chapter of the GUE Fundies text, there's a line from JJ that reads along the lines of "There's nothing more frustrating to the used-car salesman than the well-educated consumer". Seems applicable here.

 

[Effervescent]

So I am curious, and perhaps the OP could clarify...

The suit is still under warranty right? So if the zipper needed replacing, why wasn't this covered by warranty (I understand it wasn't leaking...)

The reason I ask is that SANTI, like DUI moved to the T-zip and they had a huge failure rate. Halcyon here in Canada replaced the zipper, under warranty, without hesitation. Which was awesome...

When I first read the original post, I thought that they replaced a T-zip proactively, under warranty, and at no cost, so I couldn't understand what the complaint was. To charge you for the new zipper, which wasn't leaking, and without your authorization, is BS.

This gives rise to my other question... if the boot repair was under warranty, why did they even have your credit card?

Edit: Hang on... You said:

"Mark never apologized for the mishap. Instead, he said "enjoy your new zipper at no charge" insinuating that I perhaps am the one conning them.

I am currently in the process of disputing the unauthorized zipper replacement charge with my credit card company."

Did they charge you or didn't they? If he said "enjoy at no charge", then presumably what he has done is replace a T-zip which is probably going to fail, with what, a YKK?

Here's the whole story for those who are interested (I didn't want to get in all the details in the first post): My drysuit was at Gamble's before this ordeal because I needed my seals replaced. My boots were leaking too on the top and sides (where the straps rub against the boot) and a friend who purchased the drysuit around the same time I did told me that he recently got his boots replaced under warranty. I called Halcyon and Extreme Exposure twice to make sure that the boot would be covered under warranty. I even gave them the exact purchase date.

After Gamble changed my seals and inspected my entire suit, he personally handed my drysuit to one of the Halcyon guys.

Once my drysuit was with Halcyon, they told me that they misunderstood the Santi's warranty policy and the boots wouldn't be covered. Since my suit was there already, I told them to replace the boots anyway because it's the middle of the diving season in the Northeast. I was annoyed but I agreed to paying the bill even though it was their mistake.

6 weeks later, I get an email saying that my suit is fixed. Finally. However, they replaced my zipper too. No warning whatsoever. Gamble was shocked too by what Halcyon did since he even looked over my zipper.

Halcyon has reluctantly agreed to remove the charge but the dispute is ongoing with the credit card company.

The reason why I'm posting is to let everyone know about Halcyon's policy because I did not know this and I didn't even think this was ethical. Halcyon's official policy is that they can do whatever they want with your drysuit without notifying you in advance. They even went as far to say "Normally, most customers are excited when they receive these types of proactive service efforts."

 

[Stoo]

If the boots were leaking due to "wear and tear" then they wouldn't be covered. Was the total charge from them $400? The reason I ask is that there is NO WAY that $400 would cover the cost to replace boots AND the zipper. Up here, a zipper replacement is $500 - $600 alone.

Are you sure the $400 charge wasn't to replace the boots? That's not an outrageous amount for that work I wouldn't think.

And if Halcyon reversed the charge, why is there a dispute with the cc company? The credit should show up on the next statement...

Maybe I'm a dope, but something sounds goofy~ ;-)

 

[Lorenzoid]

They even went as far to say "Normally, most customers are excited when they receive these types of proactive service efforts."

Even if they were to offer such "proactive service efforts" at no charge to the customer, they should at least call the customer and obtain authorization before proceeding. And it doesn't matter if "most" customers are agreeable; even if only one out of a hundred declines, it should be his right to do so. Your story is astounding. And I'm reading this thread attentively, since I happen to have a suit there right now having its boots replaced.