hand assisted back kick?

[Sas]

How often are people finding they really need to back up and how far are they backing up? Is this more of a question of having taken the time to learn a skill people just want to use it?

I need it a fair bit:

-when backing up to take photos or simply to get into the right position
-when laying line, i.e. if I am going to overshoot a point in which I want to tie off
-when diving under things like piers if there is surge or current it helps me avoid running into pylons
-inside wrecks if I don't have enough room to turn around
-when on stops if there is current or whatever, to avoid running into a buddy
-to hold position in a current

 

[Teamcasa]

Backwards kick is not only used to back up, but to hold position. As the result, I use the backwards kick quite actively. For example, in ascents and descents, I use the backwards kick to position myself relative to my teammates to keep everyone together.

If I need to back up, it's typically 1'-5'. I shoot a lot of video, so backing up and turning while my hands are holding the video camera steady is very common for me.

Ditto.

 

[ae3753]

So how does this work? Given the articulation of the hand the thrust can be more precisely directed with the hand than the foot. Which should reduce the chances of silting.

How is swimming with your hands less effcient that swimming with your feet? Do you have any measurements to back this up? And the orginal poster was asking about making small movements so this may not apply in any case. Competitive swimmers seem to profit from using their hands rather significantly so I question the lack of effciency. There may be more power in a finned foot, but that is not the same as effciency.

I agree with your first point about the lights. And personally find the back kick very useful. But your second two reasons may me nothing more than conventional wisdom, and wrong.

Competitive swimmers use combination of hands and feet, but that's because the naked foot is very inefficient. However, once you add fins, the dynamic changes. Competitive freedivers use fins exclusively.

While it's possible to swim with hands in a non silting manner, this is often not the case. Whether it's an OW student or a cave diver, I've seen hand swimming result in silt.

 

[Blackwood]

Efficiency is work out for energy expended. Swimming with your hands is efficient because the thrust goes where you want it to.

I'm questioning effectiveness and the idea that adding hands will increase the power to 800% of just a kick alone (to double your speed i.e. the OP, you need eight times the power).

I seem to recall the conventional wisdom in question to come from JJ’s book. Which to the best of my knowledge was not divinely inspired. Although some of you seem to be willing to accept it without evidence so it is a religious text in that sense.

I doubt enough people have read any of Jablonski's texts to attribute 'conventional wisdom' to them. If you are talking about 'Beyond' or 'Getting Clear', I don't recall any discussion of hand skulling, but I haven't read them in years. If you are talking about the 'Fundamentals' book, I've never read it.

 

[Sas]

I'm questioning effectiveness and the idea that adding hands will increase the power to 800% of just a kick alone (to double your speed i.e. the OP, you need eight times the power).



I doubt enough people have read any of Jablonski's texts to attribute 'conventional wisdom' to them. If you are talking about 'Beyond' or 'Getting Clear', I don't recall any discussion of hand skulling, but I haven't read them in years. If you are talking about the 'Fundamentals' book, I've never read it.

It discusses it under 'Propulsion Techniques' saying

"While some wreck and cave passages are particularly suscep-
tible to diver movement and to exhaust bubbles, with proper technique,
most of these can be left undisturbed. On the other hand, errant fn
kicks, erratic hand movements or poor trim can rapidly reduce visibility"

As well as under the Skills section saying that hand movements should not be used in advanced divers, but does not discuss reasons why not. I couldn't find anything other than just the visibility loss as reasons why not to use hands but perhaps I missed it.

 

[Blackwood]

As well as under the Skills section saying that hand movements should not be used in advanced divers, but does not discuss reasons why not.

The best reason is that the system he's writing skills for places a light in your hand at almost all times.

 

[ameneon]

Competitive swimmers seem to profit from using their hands rather significantly so I question the lack of effciency. There may be more power in a finned foot, but that is not the same as effciency.

Actually the biggest reason competitive swimmers don't kick under water longer are the co2 build up would affect the rest of their run too much, or they have already reached an allowed distance or like in breaststroke where you can only do one arm movement and kick.

For instance in back stroke there was set a limit on distance under water some years ago because some of the best swimmers started to just kick underwater the entire lap and came up for the turn only... which wasn't very fun to watch.

Swimming with hands over and under water cannot be compared as the forward movement of your arms when swimming is done above water with very little resistance. Under water it would effect the stream line and add alot of resistance when moving them.

If you add fins to the mix the benefits are even higher. Look at competitive freedivers, they use a monofin and no hand movements.

 

[TSandM]

Oh, I'd agree that the back kick isn't a very efficient kick, compared with the forward-driving kicks. But I'll bet the surface area that's involved in the kick is STILL greater than the surface area of my hands. At least, I can't swim backwards with my hands (something I tried a lot before I had a back kick) nearly as well as I can with my fins.

Some of the difference of opinion may be condition-related. If I were in a wetsuit with a very small tank, I'd have so much less mass and drag, maybe my hands would work better. But in a dry suit with a big steel tank or doubles, my hands are really pretty ineffective.

I use my back kick a LOT in almost every setting where I dive. I use it to stop, when I spot something interesting when I'm close to it and still moving. I use it to back up, to stay off walls, to keep position on ascents, and sometimes, I turn around and back kick in front of people I'm leading (especially with OW classes, where nobody moves very fast and backing up in front of them means I can SEE them).

 

[boulderjohn]

When I first started working in technical diving, the back kick was mentioned but not emphasized. My buddies and I learned it on our own by watching videos, sharing experiences, and practicing. We eventually realized it is an extremely important kick because it enables you to maintain or get to positions in the water relative to teammates, ascent lines, etc. If I were to do my training over again, I would make this a focus of my earliest training.

The most important tip I can give you is that every part of the back kick is unnatural. It goes against what the body is used to doing, and it goes against what your fins are designed to do. I think that knowledge is useful

Because it is contrary to the design of your legs and fins, every part of the stroke that is in a more "normal" direction needs to be minimized, chiefly through slowing down the speed. (I am talking about the recovery stroke here.)

During the recovery stroke, think about the position of the fin blades. If they are looking like normal finning in their angles, then they will push you forward. Try to get them to cut through the water s-l-o-w-l-y like a knife.

Most importantly, understand that your muscles have never really done this sort of thing. They will at first be uncoordinated, and they will at times seem to be beyond your control. That will change with time. Just keep at it and eventually they will figure it out. Before too long, you will be doing it without having to think about it.

 

[Mike Boswell]

Everybody, this is a great read, and I really like the fact that some could question conventional thinking and others could answer, all with sweet reason and good-natured civility.

BoulderJohn and Lynne have convinced me - I am going to learn the back kick, even if it kills me.