Hog and DIR gear configurations not welcome :-(

[t-mac]

I agree with the posters who support various gear configurations in rescue. The rescue course is supposed to prepare you in general rescue skills, not skills associated with a particular rig or setup. Given the variety out there, unless you are in a position of rescuing a RDB with a very familiar rig, there will always be some unfamiliarity. I've never had to use my rescue skills in real life, but it seemed to me that the point of the course was problem solving within some overarching principles designed to keep the rescuer safe and then to optimize the probability of rendering useful assistance. When I did my class, we shuffled buddies without warning and while we did not have dramatically different rig setups, even the relatively minor variations caused heightened stress, task loading and ultimately we were taught problem-solving through this. We had no DIR rigs, but I would have welcomed the experience. The alternative is that rescue qualifications should be limited to certain setups, which would be silly. IMO the more variations you see in class the better equipped you are to act in the real world and that is the real point of the certification.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I have no problem with people having long hoses, wings, one peice harness etc on any Rescue course I do.

I just ask that they have no objection to me cutting off their harness as part of my "add realism" to the course

Actually, cutting someone out of a harness is part of my standard (NAUI) Rescue class. I do it because we have so many people locally diving in harnesses, and you shouldn't just assume that the person you'll be involved in rescuing is someone you're diving with. In fact, the majority of the times I or people I've known have been involved in a rescue it wasn't their buddy they were rescuing.

For this reason ... and because a backplate lends itself so well to cold-water diving that even people who have never taken a DIR class wear them around here ... I prepare my divers to deal with situations they're likely to encounter in our local waters.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Peter Guy]

Hmmm, another case where location appears to make a difference. It may well be true that in France, where Dr. T. dives, Hog rigs are as rare as rocking horse droppings but what is true there may NOT be true elsewhere -- Puget Sound for example. While NOT the norm, Hog rigs are quite prevalent and not just with UTD or GUE trained divers. In addition, the primary donate system is quite common due to the abundance of Air2/Airsource rigs on traditional BCDs. Lastly, quite a few "traditional" BCDs have crotch straps so now, what ARE the differences?

I'm also not so sure that the point of the "recreational" Rescue class (at least the PADI one) is to teach the student how to be a "rescuer" of someone who has a problem while diving. To me the REAL point of the Resuce class is two fold:

a. Get the student to think differently about diving -- what are problems that may come along; and

b. Now that the student has been given tools to think about diving, get the student to understand how to NOT get into trouble.

Neither of those goals are gear dependent and thus the type of gear is/should be irrelevant.

But maybe I just know understand the issue since I prefer a Hog rig for the type of diving (cold water) that I do.

 

[rigdiver]

I went through a Race Boat Rescue diver course a few years ago and there was a NASA diver DIR/HOG rigged. Not to "stir" anything I went with a standard Stab Jacket and std OW type hose lengths. One of my older students from the 90's was also in the class and made the statement: "I would not dive with a hose around my neck like that." I said nothing as I knew I'd be teaching his wife soon. 2nd day in pool I'm HOG rigged and yes the look on his face was priceless. After we did air shares in the pool he saw the better way of doing things. I've seen 2 OOA situations @ 90' and both times the OOA diver could only "see" the one working 2nd stage in another diver's mouth. In one case the donating diver had an orange octo/safe 2nd held out right in front of the OOA diver's face, and had the primary ripped out. I've seen many people HOG rigged diving single cylinders all over the Caribe. One thing about DIR: It is well thought out and rationalized. You might as well accept it. You really can not argue against it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Hog or DIR rigs have no place in a recreational rescue class. They are designed for specific types of diving, outside the sphere of 'lowest common denominator rec diving'. In my personal oppinion, they are part of the natural progression of a diver, and perhaps should come after rescue class. In many ways I like the PADI system where OW teaches you how to dive, AOW opens your eyes to the types of dive out there, and when you are comfortable in the water go on to rescue, that introduces skills for helping others. Then (to my mind) comes the time to go further, and investigate DIR or Hog rigs, and more technical diving, and to get the relevant training. I would suggest that if the OP has been trained correctly in DIR or hog diving then they should already have the necessary skills that they have no need for a rec. rescue class.

The recreational rescue class is the most fun of the classes that PADI do. It is such fun because there is so much practical work to do. However, this is where having somebody in DIR or hog rig makes things more difficult. If there is only one student with this type of rig, they will have to be paired with a rec rig wearer for many activities, which is not particularly good for the rec student, nor the DIR/hog student. It doubles the instructor workload in many of the exercises as a second demonstration has to be made for everything, explaining the different ways of doing things. Simple things like removing the bcd at the surface are different, and over the period of the class the simple explication of the different skills can seriously increase the time taken to do everything. Now, two DIR/ hog divers together, or even a class full of them would be fine.

Now, I would also suggest that if the OP was not trained in DIR or Hog diving, then simply adopting the kit, and continuing the rec training is not getting the best out of the kit, and should abandon rec training and go to somebody like GUE. Getting training adapted to the gear and style of diving would seem like a good idea, no?

Saying that different configurations have no place in a recreational rescue class is assuming that your students will never be involved in a rescue of someone who isn't dressed as they are. I disagree ... I think it prudent to expose students to as many different configurations as possible ... because they each involve slightly different approaches to assisting the diver who is being rescued.

I currently arrange to have "victims" in standard recreational gear, hog rigs, and doubles. Since sidemount is becoming more popular here, I'll soon be integrating sidemount rescue into the class. And if recreational rebreathers ever catch on ... and I expect they will eventually ... I'll integrate that into the class as well.

Limiting divers to only one type of equipment may have some merit in places where that is the only type of gear you ever see ... but in areas like where I dive, it's very likely that you will be diving with or encountering divers in varying types of equipment. Why wouldn't you want your students to be prepared to help them?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added May 6th, 2012 at 07:21 AM ----------

i think for the purpose of a rescue class its always better for everyone to have similar kit.

afterwards you can dive how you want-as long as you are your buddy are happy that you each understand how to react in the case of a problem.

Rescue class isn't about your gear choices ... it's about the gear choices of the person you're attempting to rescue.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Restricting rescue classes to have only jacket BC's and standard reg set ups is stupid. One point often overlooked by instructors who are limited in their scope and experience with different gear is that it's all recreational. Technical diving is done for recreation. And as the CEO for one agency I teach for says - "all diving is technical". The last rescue class I taught had 8 students. I was in my Zeagle Express tech and my BPW, one diver in full North Atlantic tech gear - doubles and dry suit, two others diving long hose, and the rest in some type of jacket BC with standard reg set up and two of those with AIR II type units. No one was confused, no one had trouble with another diver's equipment, and getting someone out of a properly adjusted HOG harness is no more difficult and in fact may be easier than some of the recreational rigs out there now with all the different buckle designs, numerous straps, and complex inflator systems.

An instructor who cannot teach a rescue class and adapt to students different configurations has no business teaching it. Cookie cutter approaches to gear are not real world. Requiring a diver to switch to a rig he/she would not normally be diving in is another way to get that diver hurt or killed. Having students in the gear they would normally be diving in insures they know what to do. It is no different than the shops and instructors who will not let divers use their own or borrowed gear for OW classes even if the gear is safe. They lie and pull some crap about insurance and liability when in truth if the gear is safe it's just greed and/or ignorance behind it. They resent the fact that the student may not have bought the gear from them or have no idea how to properly set up something different than what they sell. Again I say an instructor who cannot adapt should probably think about another line of work.

One of the first things I do in any rescue class or intro to rescue workshop I do is have everyone set up their gear. They then are asked to go for a walk. I then make "adjustments" to that gear. Little things like loosen a tank strap, switch octo and primary hoses so that the primary is in the octo holder, move someone's light from one side to another, or disconnect the inflator hose. I then have everyone study each others gear looking for these "adjustments" and pointing them out to the user. The user then makes the correction and explains how their gear is set up and, more importantly, why it's set up that way.

Something that also happens is that once in a awhile it gets pointed out that the way someone has their gear set up may not be the best way or that another option might be considered. Things like suicide clips get noted and explained as to why the owner may want to rethink their use.

One thing that needs to be remembered about a good rescue class is that it needs to teach them how to avoid problems as much as deal with it when one occurs. Most dive issues can be solved on the surface before they even happen. IF ONE KNOWS WHAT TO LOOK FOR. Having students and assistants in as many different configurations as possible gives them the awareness to step onto a boat, look around, and see the differences in gear and what techniques they would need to use to assist that diver if they had a problem. Most are oblivious to the other people on the boat and have no situational awareness at all. When I get on a boat or arrive at a dive site I set my gear up and then look at everyone else's within my vicinity. As well as how they are setting it up, do they look like they know what they are doing, do they need assistance from the DM or mate? Those that do get noted as possible sources of trouble and I make a mental note to keep an eye on them if they get close to me underwater.

I teach OW classes in a BPW and long hose or back inflate and long hose. At some point during the class I'll grab a jacket BC and std reg and do a session or two in that. Explaining to my students each set up and most times putting them in different rigs as well. If there was only one type of BC available for scuba then it might make sense to restrict students to it. But there is not. So in a rescue class issuing such a restriction is not only shortsighted but, I would consider it, reckless as well.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

However, I would also agree that GUE ought to sort out a tech rescue class, as this would appear to be one of their missing elements. However, to produce such a class would, of course mean admitting that one of their divers could have a problem (note: humour!)

Jon

Clearly you're unfamiliar with the GUE curriculum ... otherwise you wouldn't make such a silly statement. GUE embeds rescue techniques into every class I've ever been exposed to. Granted, I'm not as up on GUE curriculum as some in here ... but I do know that being prepared to assist another diver is a fundamental tenet of team diving, and as such rescue skills are an inherent part of the curriculum at every level.

A fundamental concept you may wish to be aware of is that PADI's approach to training isn't universal in the diving world ... there are many other approaches that other agencies take. One shouldn't just assume that because PADI does things a certain way, everyone else who does it some other way are somehow deficient. NAUI, for example, is one of several agencies that still requires an unconscious diver recovery to be taught at the OW level ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Jim Lapenta]

As does SEI along with panicked diver at surface and rescue tow while stripping gear. I also include supporting a diver at the surface who has lost the ability to inflate their BC. In fact I have rescue skills of some type in every class I offer, In UW Nav for example I will do a refresher on unconscious diver just to reinforce the skill. Most often I recommend rescue before AOW if the student has not had rescue skills in their OW class. AOW is where rescue skills should be mandatory since people are likely going to be at sites or on dives where the risk is greater and the consequences potentially more serious. Taking basic rescue skills out of the OW class, In My Opinion, has been a factor in more than one diver death.

 

[irishsquid]

Very interesting thread (deja vu). Going out on a limb here, with saw in hand.
If I should ever need rescuing, my hope is that the rescuer wasn't limited to style "X" equipment and begs off because he isn't familiar with my gear. Rescue in my mind is a varied problem-solving skill set. This should be demonstrated/exposed in a class setting, not in the real world for the first time. I went to a HOG rig after my 25th dive (jacket BC for me just sucks). I didn't seek instruction how to wear or use it; really, as intuitive as belting my britches in the morning. As far as HOG rigs being taught later in a dive career/sport/ endeavor, I would think it would be the first thing utilized due to it's uncomplicated and simplistic use.

 

[boulderjohn]

I am going to agree with feeling with those who like to point out that if you are ever in a rescue situation, you cannot require that the person in need of rescue have a specified type of gear. You have to rescue the diver you have encountered, not the one you wish you had encountered. It is true that the type of gear primarily used varies from location to location, and it is true that overall gear choice remains the common alternate in the golden triangle setup, but it is very possible that a diver called on for rescue will find someone dressed in something else. As a PADI instructor, I would like to believe that my students would be ready to rescue me if the need arose.

Several years ago, there was a SB thread in which some people absolutely insisted that by agency policy, PADI did not allow Hogarthian diving in training situations, and doing so was a standards violation. I contacted PADI and found that this was not only not true, it was not remotely true. I was, in fact, told that it was a virtue to show students different diving configurations in class so that they can make a more informed choice in their own gear purchases and so that they will be able to react appropriately in any OOA situation.

I conclude therefore that in terms of a PADI rescue class, PADI's position would be that having someone there in tech gear (or any gear that was not identical to everyone else's) would not be a problem--it would instead be an opportunity. Without it, the instructor would have a hard time showing students how to deal with such configurations in time of need.

Remember, too, that this is also true for the opposite situation. A Hogarthian rescue diver should be familiar with a conventional kit and be prepared to rescue such a diver as well.