Horizontal Obsession

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When the vast majority of more experienced and advanced divers graviate towards a certain equipment selection it cannot be easiliy dismissed. Could a perectly perfomed dive be accomplished with a console? Yes, you guys and even myself have done so for years. However, the same dives can be accomplished more thoughtfully with a wrist mounted compter.

Additionally, my whole purpose in bring up this discussion was new divers would have an easy go of learning a safer ascent rate by more frequently viewing their depth/computer. Where is TSandM when I am getting dogpiled. :idk:
Gotta go! It's been fun...:shocked2:
 
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However, my main point was the difficulty that a console mounted computer adds for any diver attempting to remain in horizonal trim during any aspect of the dive or performing verticle ascents. For a diver to monitor their depth with a console system they must unclip and either contort their body position to view or at the very least crane their head downward theerby losing eye contact with buddies and the intended attraction of the dive...

The error I see with this comment is that you are assuming that the counsel is clipped off or even has a clip in the first place. Many new or poor divers I see do either:

Always have the counsel in their hand and are so paranoid about gas, depth, and time that all they see on the dive is the counsel. Watching a diver swim right into a rock is funny the first few times you see it.

Or

They are so oblivious to gas, time, and depth, having never looked at their gauges, which are dangling someplace below them, that they get into trouble and end up on a DM’s or someone else’s octo/pony/stage.
 
Well, all I can say is it made MY life a lot easier when I put my gauge on my wrist -- but then, I never clipped it anywhere where I could read it without having to pull it out. Whether it's wrist or console, the key is being able to see it.

Controlling ascent rates in good viz, with a visual reference, is one thing. Controlling them in murky green water with NO visual reference (which is what I had when I was new, and didn't know about shooting a bag) is much harder. Our ascent rates weren't reproducible, so my husband and I would get separated on ascent, which would leave me in the water with no reference at all. A wrist gauge at least made it easy to say, "I'm doing somersaults, but at least I'm doing them at 20 feet."

I can understand the rationale for teaching a vertical, negative ascent, but if you distract such a diver, they sink, and then you have someone who may get very stressed by having to clear ears and add gas to the drysuit while trying to keep track of how much deeper they are . . . At least, if you are doing an ascent with breath control and staying very close to neutral, then either inhaling deeply or exhaling sharply should arrest any unwanted movement.
 
Whether it's wrist or console, the key is being able to see it.

There you go ... straight to the point with an economy of words.

I love the way you put things sometimes ... :D

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Last November I was the group leader of a LDS-sponsored trip to Cozumel. We had a couple of newish divers in our group, but most were pretty experienced recreational divers. When we did our safety stops, everyone was in a vertical position, including the DM. They were holding their stops very effectively, with barely any physical movement.

I was the only one horizontal.

Of course, they had to ask me why. I had been given reasons back when I was taking TDI classes, and when I crossed over to UTD it was frankly not discussed. It was just understood. (I was crossing over at a higher level class than when this would have been introduced.) I gave the reasons I was given (not all of which have appeared in this thread), but frankly the real reason was one that I gave earlier--practice.

During my very first OW dives, as I struggled to hold my safety stop, I marveled at the DMs who would stay precisely at 15 feet without moving a muscle, and I was determined to do that. So on every safety stop I ever did, I used the time to work on controlling depth with my breath--while vertical. After I was taught to do it horizontally, I simply continued the concept of using that stop to work on a basic skill.

A number of posts ago I put out a challenge to people who were taught, as I was, to stay horizontal at times like this, when there is no silty bottom anywhere near you to mess up. I asked them to specify the reasons for this practice. A couple of people (notably Gombessa) have tried to do so, but I suspect the reasons were not convincing to others. I really hope that more horizontally-trained divers will accept that challenge and give their reasons.

As for me, I am holding off because I really want to read what others have to say before I repeat what I was taught.
 
Well, all I can say is it made MY life a lot easier when I put my gauge on my wrist

Whether it's wrist or console, the key is being able to see it.

There you go ... straight to the point with an economy of words.

I love the way you put things sometimes ... :D


You guys just agreed with what I have been repeating ad nausam for 5 posts albeit not as diplomatic and eloquent as TSandM. Take note of her first statement which I included above. TSandM...if you still have that bridge to sell I believe Bob and Dave would be interested in your sales pitch...:D
 
When I used to teach open water divers (in locations where we were doing drift dives and had no up or down line) I would get them to do the following: I did not mention a horizontal attitude at all.

My students generally learned very quickly to control ascents by doing what I said. I explained that I did NOT want them to be neutral, I wanted them to be negatively bouyant for the entire ascent.

The overall goal is to keep the students just SLIGHTLY negatively bouyant during most or all of the ascent. I tried to explain that the student was to use the most gentle kicking and small dumps in air. Keeping the students vertical allows them to easily see particles in the water, allows them to kick upward to maintain a very slow ascent and it is easier to sense an upward motion if you are vertical rather than horizontal.

When you want to go up, you simply start to swim up. Take a kick or two and stop and look at the particles in the water. If after you have exhaled, and you are sinking a little, then take another kick or two and exhaled for a moment and check. If you feel that you are starting to float up without kicking, then dump some air from the Bc and again look at the particles (and computer) and then start gently kicking. The key was not to allow yourself to float up, but to kick ever so gently. The second you screw up and sense that you are actively floating up, just dump some air and stop kicking. If the new diver can keep themselves always on the slightly negative side of the equation during the ascent it is much less likely to have an accident and runaway ascent. If you try to teach students to keep their face down and be perfectly neutral, this is much harder and because of the bouyancy of expanding air and wetsuit, makes the system an unstable equilibrium, it is much harder to do for the new diver.

Also, you have to consider what the horizontal diver needs to do if they dump too much air. Now they are (slowly) sinking and are negatively bouyant and the ONLY thing that will work now is to ADD AIR. If they do it too much, then you get the yo-yo ascent/descent cycle that is very disorienting and potentially dangerous. If the diver is in a vertical position and accidentally dumps too much air, they are in a position that a few gentle kicks will re-establish the ascent and they can potentially avoid adding ANY AIR to the BC on ascent. (This is an important distinnction in my opinion) If we can make it more likely that the student/new diver doesn't need to ADD AIR ON ASCENT then we are more likely to keep things in better control. (Not to mention it is easier to dump air from a BC in a verical position, for students/new divers that often have not mastered the rear dump.)

Of course, I would teach them to roll onto their back and flair out if things got out of control or they lost weights or something, but a horizontal ascent is not what i recommend for most recreational divers.

As a side note, I would explain to my students that they can continue to practice ascents and try to use less and less kicking (which means they do an ascent closer and closer to the neutral point).

Also recommending a horizontal ascent, requires that the diver do a bouyant ascent (or obviously they wouldn't go up) and recommending that new divers make bouyant ascents doesn't sound like such a good idea to me.

For myself, if students were not watching I will do a bouyant ascent and can control the positive bouayncy to keep it so minimal that it requires no kicking just breath control and fin drag, but this is not something I ever taught.

Staying ever so slightly negative on ascent is safer than staying ever so slightly positive, therefore I feel that a vertical is best for most recreational divers.

It looks like you do not trust your students capabilities and teach them bad techniques from the start because you do not trust them.... Yeah those techniques work for a novice but they do not have the future, you are nailing down the kicking from the start instead of teaching them how to maintain neutral buoyancy during the whole accent. Yes it is likely they will be yo yoing in the beginning but later on when they start feeling correct amount of air in the BC it will go smooth. That's my HO
 
When I used to teach open water divers (in locations where we were doing drift dives and had no up or down line) I would get them to do the following: I did not mention a horizontal attitude at all.

My students generally learned very quickly to control ascents by doing what I said. I explained that I did NOT want them to be neutral, I wanted them to be negatively bouyant for the entire ascent.

The overall goal is to keep the students just SLIGHTLY negatively bouyant during most or all of the ascent. I tried to explain that the student was to use the most gentle kicking and small dumps in air. Keeping the students vertical allows them to easily see particles in the water, allows them to kick upward to maintain a very slow ascent and it is easier to sense an upward motion if you are vertical rather than horizontal.

When you want to go up, you simply start to swim up. Take a kick or two and stop and look at the particles in the water. If after you have exhaled, and you are sinking a little, then take another kick or two and exhaled for a moment and check. If you feel that you are starting to float up without kicking, then dump some air from the Bc and again look at the particles (and computer) and then start gently kicking. The key was not to allow yourself to float up, but to kick ever so gently. The second you screw up and sense that you are actively floating up, just dump some air and stop kicking. If the new diver can keep themselves always on the slightly negative side of the equation during the ascent it is much less likely to have an accident and runaway ascent. If you try to teach students to keep their face down and be perfectly neutral, this is much harder and because of the bouyancy of expanding air and wetsuit, makes the system an unstable equilibrium, it is much harder to do for the new diver.

Also, you have to consider what the horizontal diver needs to do if they dump too much air. Now they are (slowly) sinking and are negatively bouyant and the ONLY thing that will work now is to ADD AIR. If they do it too much, then you get the yo-yo ascent/descent cycle that is very disorienting and potentially dangerous. If the diver is in a vertical position and accidentally dumps too much air, they are in a position that a few gentle kicks will re-establish the ascent and they can potentially avoid adding ANY AIR to the BC on ascent. (This is an important distinnction in my opinion) If we can make it more likely that the student/new diver doesn't need to ADD AIR ON ASCENT then we are more likely to keep things in better control. (Not to mention it is easier to dump air from a BC in a verical position, for students/new divers that often have not mastered the rear dump.)

Of course, I would teach them to roll onto their back and flair out if things got out of control or they lost weights or something, but a horizontal ascent is not what i recommend for most recreational divers.

As a side note, I would explain to my students that they can continue to practice ascents and try to use less and less kicking (which means they do an ascent closer and closer to the neutral point).

Also recommending a horizontal ascent, requires that the diver do a bouyant ascent (or obviously they wouldn't go up) and recommending that new divers make bouyant ascents doesn't sound like such a good idea to me.

For myself, if students were not watching I will do a bouyant ascent and can control the positive bouayncy to keep it so minimal that it requires no kicking just breath control and fin drag, but this is not something I ever taught.

Staying ever so slightly negative on ascent is safer than staying ever so slightly positive, therefore I feel that a vertical is best for most recreational divers.

You pretty much nailed my technique.
Remember folks I had been diving for about 15 years before putting on a BC and all accents were at neutral or very very slightly negative so I had to use easy kicks to accend. When I started using a BC then I could maintain neutral buoyancy through the accent.
 
NWGratefulDiver:
Have you ever actually met anyone who does that? I know I haven't.

No, but I've seen quite a few post like that.

boulderjohn:
When I was in Belize two years ago, the DM said in every briefing that people should dump
all their air out of the BCD before ascending.

That's because the DM is used to dealing with folks who forget to vent at all and are not
practiced in the fine art of remaining neutral on acsent. Having them vent all the air in
their BCs before they start ascending helps to prevent runaway ascents.

Nemrod:
If it were not so predictable to watch the gaskets blow there would be
no sport in funning with DIR, so, in the interest of world peace and human harmony, I ban
myself from mentioning, uh, hmm, well, the three letter acronym that get's y'all all spinning
at least until I forget my self imposed moratorium. I am forgetful these days so, it is what
it is.

I can't speak for Bob, but my impression was not that he was upset with you, but he was
not happy with the different treatment by the powers that be when DIR is mentioned vs
when PADI is mentioned.
 
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