How bad is it if an LDS calls you an “internet diver”?

[victorzamora]

Mike and mathauck, I think y'all are SUPER far off. It's not just dive gear either. I can order a pistol online for $100 less than the gun store here had it at. They'd still make money at the lower price. I'm not going to pay over $100 more for the privilege of giving them the sale. Same with dive gear. Unless the price is there or there's another motivating factor....why would I concern myself with keeping their business alive? Dive gear is marked up around 100%......and even more so for mask/snorkel/fins. Believe me, they're certainly not LOSING money on the sales. Where they ARE losing money is by not making the sale. If they can't make up the difference by providing services internet retailers simply can't, they certainly don't deserve to stay in business. And if they don't provide me with services I can't get online, and their prices are higher, why would I buy from them? Even WalMart does price matching. I simply don't get that attitude at all.

Another hobby that this is a big deal in is the RC plane/heli/car hobby as well. But that hobby much worse because you can get crazy cheap stuff from China (like 10% the price of US-stuff, and typically built in parallel).

 

[fire_diver]

Of all hobbies, I can honestly say that I've never seen such passionate feelings as I see between owners and customers in dive shops.
Are there other hobbies that are this way?

Metal detecting. The local detector shop vs internet sales is a huge deal in that hobby too.

 

[Mike]

Mike and mathauck, I think y'all are SUPER far off. It's not just dive gear either. I can order a pistol online for $100 less than the gun store here had it at. They'd still make money at the lower price. I'm not going to pay over $100 more for the privilege of giving them the sale. Same with dive gear. Unless the price is there or there's another motivating factor....why would I concern myself with keeping their business alive? Dive gear is marked up around 100%......and even more so for mask/snorkel/fins. Believe me, they're certainly not LOSING money on the sales. Where they ARE losing money is by not making the sale. If they can't make up the difference by providing services internet retailers simply can't, they certainly don't deserve to stay in business. And if they don't provide me with services I can't get online, and their prices are higher, why would I buy from them? Even WalMart does price matching. I simply don't get that attitude at all.

You would never be asked by me to feel sorry and 'keep my business open'.

However you obviously aren't a small business owner as you'd never say something as unrealistic as "they still make money at the lower price". The economic business theory of "How do you stay in business if you lose money on every sale? We make it up in volume!" only works for as long as you can borrow money.

Any replies citing Walmart as the business model to mimic instantly discredit the poster. Walmart is a huge faceless corporation that makes no personal connection to their community or their customers, a LDS is the exact opposite, it's a small business more often than not with the owner/operator on the premises and sells by relationship selling, creating a face in its community and creating relationships with it's customers. Dive shops that can't do that, go out of business by forgetting what they need to do and chasing internet customers for a little while until they have to close their doors.

There are many business models that are successful, selling on low prices isn't one of them for small businesses to emulate. Smart business people send as many of those types of customers to their competition as they can while they market to and create a business that appeals to the more lucrative customers who respect a persons investment in their livelyhood, understand that people need to make a realistic profit to stay in business, to put food on the table, to afford a decent life style, just like their customers. Customers who create a value picture that is make up of many elements and not just price. A business can service these types of customers and create a viable long term business or they can service the price shoppers with no loyalty and die a death of a thousand cuts on their way out of business.

Show me any small business who sells solely on price and you're showing me a dead business walking, its not a matter of if, its only a matter of when. It might be 2 years or take 10 years for them to go out of business but they are on their way and one step closer each day.

As a consumer you're more than welcome to take advantage of their ignorance on their way to bankruptcy, the stupid deserve what the get, have at them. But like I said, don't be offended when you run into a business that understands their business and tells you to take a hike, sometimes it will be nicely and through white lies that you won't even know what's going on, sometimes it will be a brutal experience.

 

[victorzamora]

I don't expect small businesses to sell solely on price. I've said more than once that I'm happy to pay extra for a shop that deserves it. However, if the price isn't close or the service isn't phenomenal....then it's not worth it to me.

Now, considering that the markup is at or over 100%....a 5-10% reduction in sales price is not going to kill you. I know, I was heavily involved with a young dive shop....I was one of their main sales reps. It's also not just the reg, you sell them future service on the reg, accessories for it, and every time they come back in you can sell them more. If the LDS has something advertised for slightly more than online, I'll pay the difference to get a face-to-face interaction with the LDS and invest in future ease of service in terms of ease-of-access and/or non-online-compatible services. I refuse to pay a few hundred dollars more for the right to buy it from you.

And I've been involved with (my parents have owned or I've helped start) several small businesses.....and in none of them did we charge a premium for the right to sell you goods or services that could be acquired elsewhere easily. We strived to provide a competitive price on exceptional services.

 

[kelemvor]

His first mistake was agreeing to match the price with an internet retailer. Why any bricks and mortar location would offer to match an internet price is beyond me. They aren't comparable, prices, it's an unrealistic expectation unless the store can figure out how to make up the waste of time order in another way such as selling training, other equipment etc...

He probably finally came to his senses half way through this whole thing after he kept asking himself why he should use all that expensive real estate he pays rent for to place an order, deal with the labor involved in the processing of the order, dealing with the labor to manage the order, deal with the possibility that the order comes in wrong, deal with the labor used to correct it, dealing with a customer who was offering little to no profit all for the glory of doing business with him, all for making basically a tiny gross profit that in reality probably turns into a net loss. He probably finally realized it was costing him money to fulfill the order and finally had enough and pulled the plug which he should have done right from the start when he was asked "if you match an internet price I will order this from you" and he should have right from the start explained the economics of how its a waste of time for him to match an internet price but I will sell it to your for X, and if you didn't like it or didn't understand it, tell you to hit the road.

There are customers who respect a persons investment in their livelyhood, understand that people need to make a realistic profit to stay in business, to put food on the table, to afford a decent life style, just like their customers. A business can service these types of customers and create a viable long term business or they can service the price shoppers with no loyalty and die a death of a thousand cuts on their way out of business.

It's really a simple decision. If he can sell the item and make a profit, it's probably a good idea. If he cant he's got to pass on the sale since someone else can. Unless he can convince the customer he adds some value that makes the expense worthwhile.

If you throw customers out of your store for also shopping somewhere else, you're basically saying you depend on suckers to make a living. As long as there are enough people with more money than sense I'm sure that will work.

 

[drrich2]

On the issue of whether a LDS can still make money matching an online price, I have a question.

When a large vendor such as LeisurePro or ScubaToys puts in an order, for, oh, say, a batch of brand name $500 (more or less) jacket BCDs, and a LDS puts in a small order for a few of the same, any idea what the cost is for each? Just roughly.

Places like Walmart leverage enormous buying power and economy of scale to achieve a business model that mom & pop general stores cannot match. I would think that would be true for the LDS vs. LeisurePro. I'm just curious as to how big a difference we are talking.

Ironically, a LDS aiming to compete on low price might try an approach like ScubaPro's 'Platinum Dealer' program:

The SCUBAPRO Platinum Dealer Program recognizes and rewards participating U.S. dive centers that choose to represent SCUBAPRO exclusively, carry the entire line of SCUBAPRO products, and meet other minimum criteria.

But the commitment to exclusivity would prevent the broader choice that big online vendors have as another major advantage.

Richard.

 

[TSandM]

I flatly refuse to deal with people who shop or compete on price (in diving or in my profession).

Why?

If someone comes into the LDS and wants to have a price matched, you either can do it or not. I used to take internet quotes into a couple of our local shops. One got mad, the other told me he honestly couldn't MATCH the price, but he could get somewhere near it, and sell me the goods today. Or sell me the goods in a couple of days; but I always figured I was willing to pay a small premium to support our local shop.

If someone is negotiating on price, you should be able to convince them WHY they should pay more for the item at your store, or you should bless them to go off and buy it on line. If you can't convince someone that you are adding value to the purchase to justify a higher price, then that's your problem with trying to do business with an outdated model, not the customer's problem.

 

[redacted]

On the issue of whether a LDS can still make money matching an online price, I have a question.

When a large vendor such as LeisurePro or ScubaToys puts in an order, for, oh, say, a batch of brand name $500 (more or less) jacket BCDs, and a LDS puts in a small order for a few of the same, any idea what the cost is for each? Just roughly.

I have seen a number of 30% discount from full wholesale. But with price controls, that just means the big guy gets more profit..

"The PRIVILEGE of shopping...." That is really quite funny. Shopping is rarely an enjoyable experience. I will usually opt for less time and less cost. While there may be a few providers who are worth a bit more; I have not found any in scuba gear retail.

 

[mathauck0814]

Why?

If someone comes into the LDS and wants to have a price matched, you either can do it or not. I used to take internet quotes into a couple of our local shops. One got mad, the other told me he honestly couldn't MATCH the price, but he could get somewhere near it, and sell me the goods today. Or sell me the goods in a couple of days; but I always figured I was willing to pay a small premium to support our local shop.

If someone is negotiating on price, you should be able to convince them WHY they should pay more for the item at your store, or you should bless them to go off and buy it on line. If you can't convince someone that you are adding value to the purchase to justify a higher price, then that's your problem with trying to do business with an outdated model, not the customer's problem.

It's more the principle than anything. I prefer to do business with people who use metrics other than price to drive their decision making. While there are limits to what we can each do financially, in a recreational pursuit where safety is a concern price-sensitivity is a red flag that indicates that we're probably not compatible; I'm ok with that and I'd expect that the prospective customer be ok with that as well. Now, in the interest of full disclosure, I'm not "in" hard goods professionally so I do understand that makes a difference.

In my professional life, I've learned that the customers who make up 10% of your revenue take up 90% of your time and so I'm simply not interested in working with that segment. That's also OK - there are other providers who have the stamina to service that group.

I'll state my case and my price. I'm not going to "convince" or "sell" you anything. If you don't like my prices I'm not going to haggle, I'm also not going to be disrespectful; you're welcome to buy elsewhere. I'll just thank you for your consideration and feel good knowing that we were incompatible from a commercial perspective. So far, the market has more than adequately born out my philosophy. If that changes, I'll have to decide whether to change with it or exit the market.

I'd rather spend my energy selling to 1% of people who would find the attraction to doing business on the terms of my value proposition than attract 99% of people who would prefer I forsake my value proposition for price.

 

[industrious95]

"Internet Diver." Is that a new Padi certification?

I dive regularly with a local "bunch of guys" and we charter local boats to take us out. One of the group is a dive shop owner. When people show up with new gear, there's always lively chatter about "I didn't buy this from Dale, he's much too expensive." But only to Dale's face. (not his real name)

I think most dive shops make their money on lessons, service and fills. Maybe they'll lose that $500 BCD sale, but he's a complete fool if he alienates you, because you're still going to need gas, annual service, and little $10 accessories that aren't worth ordering on-line because of shipping charges.

There's plenty of bad business owners in the world.