How can GUE/UTD work with so few instructors?

[Coldwater_Canuck]

While they may offer 25 individual courses, I doubt it is UTD's goal (at least in the near term) to continually teach them all.

Both GUE and UTD are demand oriented agencies rather than supply oriented agencies.

So in general, it's more about getting some people and requesting a course rather than having a set schedule?

Students who want these classes either travel to where they are given (see amascuba's report of his Fundamentals class) or fly in an instructor to their location. Friends of mine, for example, recently took GUE Tech 2. They did a weekend in Florida with their instructor to begin with, and about a month later, flew him out to Monterey to do the experience dive portion of the class. It is an expensive way to take classes, but then again, people looking for inexpensive classes are not going to choose these agencies, anyway.

UTD is a very new agency, and will undoubtedly expand its instructor core slowly and carefully. GUE is also expanding slowly. I don't believe either intends to challenge PADI for world domination. Realistically, as Peter says, most people learn to dive to do a few dives on vacation, and although they would all benefit from the skills taught in these classes, few even know they exist, or would be willing to put the money and time into developing them.

People who take these classes tend to be highly motivated, avid divers, and prioritize superb training to the point of being able to do what it takes to get it.

Makes sense, thanks.

One question though: how can you successfully fly in an instructor or fly to somewhere when you don't know how long the course will last? Aren't these agencies notorious for failing people to keep working on their skills.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

A large number of instructors has no bearing on the quality of the education. We see that illustrated clearly in the posts from new divers who cannot swim horizontal, do not know how to do weight checks, cannot clear a mask without kneeling on something, and cannot dive without a DM in the water.

Not sure where you got that from, but in any case that wasn't what I was saying at all. Obviously having less instructors can be a good thing, I mean an agency with only 1 instructor who happens to be the best instructor in the world has the best "average instructor quality", that doesn't mean it's practical for everyone to learn from him.

 

[Rhone Man]

Aren't these agencies notorious for failing people

Someone once told me that GUE instructors fail approximately 2/3rds of people taking Fundies for the first time, thereby necessitating a repeat visit by the instructor. Not sure how scientific that estimate was, but even if it was only 1/3rd of first-timers who fail, that is still a massively higher proportion than anyone else on the block.

Going to be interested to hear the replies to that question...

 

[Gombessa]

Do they offer the classes much though is kind of what I'm asking? It's one thing to list a bunch of courses on a website, but it doesn't mean much if they aren't realistic to take. Realistically, are most classes regularly offered?

I imagine some higher-concentration locations (Florida, California, Mexico perhaps?) may have enough demand where instructors have set class dates and have people sign up, but in my limited experience, these classes are not as much ones where you look at a calendar and show up on the appointed day, and more about getting a team and the instructor together and mutually arranging a time and schedule that works for everybody.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

Someone once told me that GUE instructors fail approximately 2/3rds of people taking Fundies for the first time, thereby necessitating a repeat visit by the instructor. Not sure how scientific that estimate was, but even if it was only 1/3rd of first-timers who fail, that is still a massively higher proportion than anyone else on the block.

Going to be interested to hear the replies to that question...

These are the numbers I've heard as well. However, while initially shocking, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. I don't think you need to retake the course or anything, just demonstrate that you've improved in areas you didn't pass.

What I was getting at though is while having a couple extra "checkout" dives or whatever they are called (dives to demonstrate you've improved these skills) isn't a big deal locally, if you and your instructor are in different regions, this seems like it would be a royal pain. Or after fudies/essentials are course failures more rare?

 

[Gombessa]

2/3 failing Fundies sounds awfully high. I'm guessing the first few years when the program started that may be true. Nowadays, more people have heard about the class and the rigors and requirements and come in more "prepared" (for better or worse, that's a different thread). I don't know anyone locally who has "failed" in the last year--fail meaning something like "you are deemed an unsafe diver and don't show potential to improve within 6 months" --which probably means the instructor doesn't think you should even be in the water Does GUE release these kinds of statistics?

 

[leabre]

I don't know what the average of people doing this is, but I once paired up with an individual at Catalina Island who was DIR and GUE to the core. He didn't have a buddy and we never met, but he took a chance on me (not being trained the same way as he) and we practiced drills (doubles, bouyancy, finning, buddy checks, team excercises, etc.). He was considerably better than I was but I had only started adopting the DIR and tech ways just within 20 dives prior. After doing three dives with him I asked if we could do a leisure dive and he informed me that he doesn't do those. His past 300 dives has been nothing but training dives at the point, at the oil rigs, or other deep locations in order to perfect his skills for an upcoming GUE tech 1 course he was scheduled for in New Jersey. He had only been to the GUE-F level at the point.

That got me thinking, people who adopt GUE/UTD must be committed. I dive to have fun. If my every single dive was strictly practice then it would cease to be fun for me unless there was an ultimate objective (for him there was). I'm one who signed up for UTD and am waiting for the class to agree on a schedule. I will always practice my skills within each dive but I will also enjoy the majority of my dives. On occasion I do "training" dives. But I can't imagine 300 straight dives costing me a boat fee to do nothing but practice and not even notice the giant sea bass swimming past me (I don't think he saw them, he wanted me to focus on him as a marker for bouyancy while he did drills and vice-versa).

 

[mts0628]

...One question though: how can you successfully fly in an instructor or fly to somewhere when you don't know how long the course will last? Aren't these agencies notorious for failing people to keep working on their skills.

It has been said before and worth saying again, when you decide go to a class, hope to learn, but do not dwell on passing or failing. If looking at your sense of failing, it is not the agencies that fail, it is the students that do.

It was explained to me that the only ways that a student would flat out fail (in fundamentals) is if the student either just refused to keep trying or simply gave up, or if the student was such a hazard in the water that scuba was obviously not the right choice for them. There may be other criteria but my instructor did not share them with us.

An alternative to passing or failing is provisional, in which you are given time to fix any deficiencies that may need attention and then dazzle your instructor with your new-found talent. It will be your responsibility to meet the instructor, so you go to them or you transport them in.

No matter what, it will be the best training that you undergo, and while you may not pass the first go around, you will know what you need to fix to make yourself a better scuba diver and dive buddy.

 

[Blackwood]

His past 300 dives has been nothing but training dives

I think that's a rarity. It certainly isn't recommended.

Drills are one thing, but you have to dive to learn how to dive.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Someone once told me that GUE instructors fail approximately 2/3rds of people taking Fundies for the first time, thereby necessitating a repeat visit by the instructor. Not sure how scientific that estimate was, but even if it was only 1/3rd of first-timers who fail, that is still a massively higher proportion than anyone else on the block.

Going to be interested to hear the replies to that question...

I didn't pass GUE Fundies on the first attempt ... but I also didn't fail it. There's a third state, called "Provisional" which is where the majority of people initially end up. This means that you didn't suck badly enough to fail, but you need improvement in certain areas in order to meet the objectives of the class. And therefore you take some time to go out and practice those skills until you feel you can meet the objectives, then re-evaluate them with the instructor. Once you've attained an acceptable level with that skill, you pass. This can take some time ... as well as effort outside of the class environment.

In my Fundamentals class, none of the six students passed during the initial class, although eventually we all did. To my knowledge, all of us went on to higher levels of training afterward, relying on the base skills we learned in that class to take us to the next level, so we looked at it as a long-term investment.

Access to instructors is a legitimate issue ... I took my training before we had either a GUE or UTD instructor locally, and ultimately settled on NAUI-Tech for further training for primarily that reason (I wanted access to my instructor on a regular basis). But I was fortunate enough to find a local NAUI-Tech instructor with a GUE background who taught to a similar level. Not all NAUI-Tech instructors do, or will.

To each their own ... these two agencies have a niche that works for them and the divers for whom this type of training is appealing. Personally, although I'd like to see better local access to GUE/UTD instructors I wouldn't want to see it at the expense of a lower-quality program designed to appeal to a wider audience.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)