How close your buddy vs Herd diving

[Ana]

Yup, it's a bit rigid, but funnily enough, it works. Requires a bit of discipline, though. Biggest group size is usually 5, after that, there is enough experienced people to form a new group, or you need more experienced people... to form a new group with the newbies.

Yes, it sounds rigid... if you don't mind I'm going to keep asking because I can do this one day just to check things out but wow...

...so there are 5 of us and Joe on the far left thinks he may spotted an indigo hamlet (little blue fish) what is the procedure at that point?

If you start the dive as the 4th person on the right you end the dive as the forth person on the right... is that what you are saying?

That is the typical routine, not just for people learning? You get together with your diving buddies to "have fun" , their experiences vary from let's say a few dozen dives to a few hundred, and that is the typical Saturday dive?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

At all times be able to touch your buddy without moving.

I'm trying to digest the meaning of this sentence and just thinking about it, I get a feeling of claustrophobia by the encroachment on my personal space. I wouldn't mind being inside a confined space but another person so close?

Please help me understand. Let's say you and your buddy are diving a reef, make it a shallow one... a little bit of current, nothing excessive but is there. You are going with the current and you see a whatever that calls your attention, is nothing to write a report about but it just called your attention. If you stop to look your buddy has to stop too? Even if you only wanted to stop for 7 seconds and keep going?

The whole duration of the dive, you and your buddy remain that close? Is this the way most of the people dive now?

You mentioned "lead diver' crosscheck". This would be in the case of a group dive, correct? Maybe I don't get it because I think of this as a group going to a restaurant, someone may lead the way to the table but only I decide the way I'm going to eat my food.

Would you mind expanding on this some more, I'm truly curious. I believe I'm over thinking what you said, and making a ridiculous picture in my mind.

I don;t know about the lead diver crosscheck scenario but I teach that divers should be no more than a 1/4 turn of the head out of sight and with in arms reach. Especially new divers. When diving with people I know and trust we are always within 6 feet or so of each other. This is plenty of room. Not knocking into each other yet if there is an issue response is fast and easy. In low vis elbow to elbow is not too close. At night if the vis is good then arms reach and we know by our lights where each one is.

And yes if you stop for 7 seconds to look at something I stop as well. A good kick can put me 10-15 feet away from you in that amt of time if I am not aware of you stopping. In current or low vis guess what? We are out of sight or out of range of quick assistance of each other. Divers have died on the surface because one got "a little bit behind" and when the other turned around they were gone. Underwater 7 seconds is enough for an inflator malfunction, lost weight pouch, buddy gets spooked by something, mask gets kicked off by the bozo in front because the teams were following too close, etc.

If we are not in the positions I've noted, to me we are now same ocean buddies and better not count on each other for anything if the shiite hits the fan. I expect students to be in buddy pairs, at same pace, same depth, same trim. That's how all pool sessions are done so OW should be no different.

 

[The Chairman]

If you want to see the longest 10 seconds of your life, try swimming into the current until you're breathing hard, then stop breathing and try to make it to your buddy who is "upstream" and "10 seconds away".

I was a fan of "not too far away" until my deco instructor had us do the above exercise. "Buddy distance" shrank quite a bit right after that.

I might be overly conservative, but whether it's a pony or my buddy, I want to know that my next breath is always within grabbing distance.

Terry

First, why would you have your buddy "upstream" from you in an open water setting? Don't be an SOB (Same Ocean Buddy)! If you are diving together, enjoy the dive together! How can you communicate effectively if you aren't side by side?

To elucidate further, I expect a student to LOCATE and TOUCH their buddy within 10 seconds in clear water when I give them the "Where's your buddy?" sign. Reduce vis significantly or add current and we adjust that to 5 seconds. It's a great drill to train them to stay CLOSE to their buddy.

 

[The Chairman]

@NetDoc: I'm not comfortable being as far as a 10 second swim away from my buddy. I guess I have "bigger issues than buddy management" (whatever that is). Are you implying that I'm inadequately trained and/or not comfortable in the water?

You answered your own question before you even asked it!

Position one buddy pair a "10 second swim" away (let's say it's a "hard" 10 second swim) from the other.

That defeats the whole point of teaching them situational awareness. They have to FIND and then get to their buddy within that 10 seconds. Quite often when I signal the diver, their buddy is just a bit above them. Since they don't think in 3D, they seldom think to look just above them. In darker water, their disorientation is almost immediate and they have less time to do it in.

I think the 5 or 10 second rule can lull the OW student into a false sense of security.

You say that ONLY because no one has tested you on it. It's a wonderful exercise and builds situational awareness.

Once, I had a class come up to a small rise in the reef. One student went one left and the other went right. I popped my fist (a loud signal to look at me) and both looked at me, but couldn't see each other. I was able to give the "Where's your buddy?" sign to them both simultaneously. One turned around and went back and the other went over the rise and both were moving so fast that it seemed to take forever for the one to catch up. Now, you don't think some learning took place there?

What's the golden rule for a lost buddy?

Stop, breathe.
Listen, look and breathe.
Ascend a few feet and look around you 360^o and don't forget to breathe.
Bubbles get bigger as they ascend. The chances are that you can see your buddy's bubbles as you ascend increases as they increase.
Look for no more than one minute and head to the surface slowly: turning, looking and breathing all the while.
If your buddy is doing the same thing then you'll see each other on the way up or on the surface.

But what do I know?

My intent was not to cajole you or intimidate you. It was a serious question.

Ever dive in kelp?

Nope. Maybe one day.

 

[Web Monkey]

First, why would you have your buddy "upstream" from you in an open water setting? Don't be an SOB (Same Ocean Buddy)! If you are diving together, enjoy the dive together! How can you communicate effectively if you aren't side by side?

To elucidate further, I expect a student to LOCATE and TOUCH their buddy within 10 seconds in clear water when I give them the "Where's your buddy?" sign.

Your 10 second rule means that buddies can be 10 seconds apart. This distance isn't always in a convenient direction, however even if it's "10 seconds apart" side by side, that's still 10 seconds without air.

In fact, it's more than that, since it's 10 seconds until "touching distance" then at least a few more seconds to get face to face, do the "Holy s***! I'm out of air!" dance, and for the donor to figure out what's going on and do an air share.

Terry

 

[Saltwater Junky]

I've had a lot of insta-buddies and their instructors taught them well as did mine. During the dives we stayed within 10-15 ft if not closer depending on the vis. We realized that we were in charge of our own safety, but to be close at hand if either one of us had a problem.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

@NetDoc: I'm not comfortable being as far as a 10 second swim away from my buddy. I guess I have "bigger issues than buddy management" (whatever that is). Are you implying that I'm inadequately trained and/or not comfortable in the water?

You answered your own question before you even asked it!

To clarify (even though I suspect that you understand and are just being snarky), my post distinguishes between what my "comfortable" buddy separation distance is and whether or not I have an overall sense of comfort in the water.

That defeats the whole point of teaching them situational awareness. They have to FIND and then get to their buddy within that 10 seconds. Quite often when I signal the diver, their buddy is just a bit above them. Since they don't think in 3D, they seldom think to look just above them. In darker water, their disorientation is almost immediate and they have less time to do it in. You say that ONLY because no one has tested you on it. It's a wonderful exercise and builds situational awareness.

I thought that we were discussing recommended buddy separation distance here...not being able to prove that one can play tag with a buddy in 10 seconds or less.
I do agree, though, that any exercise that enhances situational awareness is a good thing.

My intent was not to cajole you or intimidate you. It was a serious question.

Not intimidated in the least. I'm still shocked that an instructor would ever recommend a 5 to 10 second buddy separation distance to a novice diver. That's setting the bar too low IMO.

 

[Ana]

Divers have died on the surface because one got "a little bit behind" and when the other turned around they were gone. Underwater 7 seconds is enough for an inflator malfunction, lost weight pouch, buddy gets spooked by something, mask gets kicked off by the bozo in front because the teams were following too close, etc. .

Don't want to sound confrontational, but this sounds a bit dramatic.... being on the surface by yourself DOES NOT cause death. Mask being kicked off actually makes my point that there is need for distance between people.

If we are not in the positions I've noted, to me we are now same ocean buddies and better not count on each other for anything if the shiite hits the fan. I expect students to be in buddy pairs, at same pace, same depth, same trim. That's how all pool sessions are done so OW should be no different.

This is not about classes, the OP mentions "high visibility - shallow - Caribbean" From that I guess it is warm too. It is a "vacation" dive, people there are supposed to be already certified so people already know how to deal with what ever little oh crap moments may happen.

This is my question I see the posts here are arguing about 10 seconds, and you mention 10-15 feet. We are what if'ing this to death (literally). Is not a 2 knot current dive in the dark under an iceberg, with a mentally impaired buddy.

It is a magnificent vacation in the Caribbean dive, it should be illegal to do this dive with out getting upside down purging your 2nd stage inside the neck of your suit to feel the bubbles all over your skin and out the ankles. Then a few 360 rotations and a very good looooong stretch, then when you spot a hog fish, since you can't spear him because the charter frowned at your speargun, you just race with him to see how far can you keep up.... then you come back and check on your buddy unless he is busy playing with an octopus or playing with a little remora than got attached to his leg.

I'm sorry... I guess I don't know what I don't know, but at this point I'm not sure I want to understand any further, seems like there is too much paranoia going on. Yes things may happen, my identity can be compromised; I work for a government agency, a wako in my building may show up one day with a big gun and lots of bullets, I know when that happens he'll shoot me first, but cheeseeeee... until that day I'm going to go about my business. I'll look both ways when crossing a street and be cautious while driving, double check my gear, and not take for granted my love ones... but diving in formation? ....having someone so close he/she can hear what I tell the fish? I don't know about that.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Don't want to sound confrontational, but this sounds a bit dramatic.... being on the surface by yourself DOES NOT cause death. Mask being kicked off actually makes my point that there is need for distance between people.

This is not about classes, the OP mentions "high visibility - shallow - Caribbean" From that I guess it is warm too. It is a "vacation" dive, people there are supposed to be already certified so people already know how to deal with what ever little oh crap moments may happen.

I understand what you're saying, Ana. I would hate to think we're trying to suck all of the fun out of diving. The problem is that benign Caribbean conditions can promote the kind of complacency that contributes to dive accidents. It's probably safer to maintain a certain level of "tension" in our diving habits. If that means doing a comprehensive pre-dive check with your buddy, then go for it. If that means adopting a 5-10 ft. buddy separation distance, then so be it. If that means doing an air-sharing drill with a buddy at the beginning of every dive, then do it. I don't see why having fun and being safe should ever be mutually exclusive.

 

[scuga]

I think there has to be some situational middle ground. Every location is different using the same strategy and plan you would use for a highly technical dive on a 30 ft reef dive in paradise just doesn't make that much sense. I am not advocating recklessness, I just think that a shallow reef has to much going on? If it came down to plowing into a bunch of tube coral to maintain arms reach would you sacrifice the buddy or the coral? I think most people would say well swim around the coral and get back with buddy. But, that is failing to keep proper distance and who could advise that.

The bottom line is communication. When I was in aruba I looked for buddy every once in awhile (8 Breaths or so) I tried to keep track and he was always 10 ft away towards my right when the reef was on my left or on my left when the reef was on the right. I was taking picture and I read on this forum that if your dive buddy is taking picture your effectively solo diving so we discussed that I would lead he would follow and he would get a dvd of all the pics I got.