How do you other boatowners deal with the delicate subject of money and divers?
- Thread starter grey2112
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OP
grey2112
Contributor
From my reading of the rules, agreeing to share gas costs does NOT constitute payment for hire. Now, if I were to say upfront "You will be charged $50 for this dive trip" then that would be considered payment for hire and you'd need a license.
---------- Post added February 18th, 2014 at 07:17 PM ----------
Understood completely. Again, I am getting various advice from various people. Some are shocked that I'm not asking $75 from each diver. The way things worked out this last time was that we all pretty much ended up splitting the costs of the gas amongst the four of us, including cost of towing the boat to and from the ramp. I am very happy that the other divers came along, paid their fair share, gave me advice, showed me some good numbers.
So, in closing, I think that things worked out just fine, I shouldn't listen to these other people who are treating trips like this as ways of getting out for free and making others pay for the trip. I want to make new friends and don't want them to feel like they are being taken advantage of.
I can only imagine what a charter for spearfishing can cost, though.
We ended up running about 70 miles, at around 2.5MPG, for a total of about $120 in gas - everyone chipped in $30-$40 so it ended up coming out just right.
---------- Post added February 18th, 2014 at 07:17 PM ----------
Understood completely. Again, I am getting various advice from various people. Some are shocked that I'm not asking $75 from each diver. The way things worked out this last time was that we all pretty much ended up splitting the costs of the gas amongst the four of us, including cost of towing the boat to and from the ramp. I am very happy that the other divers came along, paid their fair share, gave me advice, showed me some good numbers.
So, in closing, I think that things worked out just fine, I shouldn't listen to these other people who are treating trips like this as ways of getting out for free and making others pay for the trip. I want to make new friends and don't want them to feel like they are being taken advantage of.
I can only imagine what a charter for spearfishing can cost, though.
We ended up running about 70 miles, at around 2.5MPG, for a total of about $120 in gas - everyone chipped in $30-$40 so it ended up coming out just right.
tplyons
Contributor
This is how I've always operated as well. If you're supplying the equipment, especially a boat/vehicle, I'll supply everything else. This includes road trips to Canada for diving. If he'll drive his car and take on the cost of wear and tear, I'll take care of gas and the first beer when we get there.
Translate that to using your boat? I'd split the gas bill with everyone except the owner and buy him the first deco beer.
If I were the boat owner, I'd only want to take like-minded friends.
I have never been on a private boat where the owner asked for anything besides my company. I always helped clean the boat after the trip inside and out and stow everything away. I usually bring some food. I also note that as I leave the galley I see that the boat owner has left some money on the galley table sometime while we are cleaning up. At least I assume it is his ;-)
DISCLAIMER: NOT a boat owner or attorney. Wookie has laid out the USCGS rules on this and that pretty well settles the subject. Note that the rules were recently clarified.
Do not confuse either the law or the courts with anything to do with common sense or logic. Please keep in mind that the USCG and your insurance may have a different definition of commercial boat or boat for hire.
Bottom line, this is a conversation you should have with your attorney and your insurance company less you find yourself in a different position than you think you are or want to be in your particular state. Better to operate from a paid for professional optioning that a I think position.
So what if you cross the line and are deemed to be a commercial boat? Do you have the appropriate commercial boat captain license with the requisite insurance, safety inspections and safety equipment (oxygen, AED etc) of a commercial boat captain? For you to in any manner collect money from them (pass the hat), imply an amount or tell them a price would put you in potential jeopardy of becoming an unlicensed commercial operation. Not a big deal until someone gets hurt and your boat owners insurance is not for commercial for hire boats.
Safest answer is your guest are just that, your guest. I have a friend who use to own a beautiful 50+ foot boat. On an outing during the recent economic downturn (recession, depression, disaster?) he found himself concerned about the cost of fuel. He promptly sold the boat. He said, "if you have to worry about the cost of fuel, you can't afford the boat".
DISCLAIMER: NOT a boat owner or attorney. Wookie has laid out the USCGS rules on this and that pretty well settles the subject. Note that the rules were recently clarified.
Do not confuse either the law or the courts with anything to do with common sense or logic. Please keep in mind that the USCG and your insurance may have a different definition of commercial boat or boat for hire.
Bottom line, this is a conversation you should have with your attorney and your insurance company less you find yourself in a different position than you think you are or want to be in your particular state. Better to operate from a paid for professional optioning that a I think position.
So what if you cross the line and are deemed to be a commercial boat? Do you have the appropriate commercial boat captain license with the requisite insurance, safety inspections and safety equipment (oxygen, AED etc) of a commercial boat captain? For you to in any manner collect money from them (pass the hat), imply an amount or tell them a price would put you in potential jeopardy of becoming an unlicensed commercial operation. Not a big deal until someone gets hurt and your boat owners insurance is not for commercial for hire boats.
Safest answer is your guest are just that, your guest. I have a friend who use to own a beautiful 50+ foot boat. On an outing during the recent economic downturn (recession, depression, disaster?) he found himself concerned about the cost of fuel. He promptly sold the boat. He said, "if you have to worry about the cost of fuel, you can't afford the boat".
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Chugwhump
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We buy the fuel.
We bring the grub.
We fill the tanks.
We help wash and clean the boat.
We appreciate the guy who shares his boat.
A big long day on the water with 3-4 guys, diving and boating, we plan on at least $50 a head in cost.
Chug
Never has to worry about a ride.
We bring the grub.
We fill the tanks.
We help wash and clean the boat.
We appreciate the guy who shares his boat.
A big long day on the water with 3-4 guys, diving and boating, we plan on at least $50 a head in cost.
Chug
Never has to worry about a ride.
OP
grey2112
Contributor
I think if more people understood just how expensive boat fuel was they might follow your lead 
However, how do I tell people of the true costs without being liable or accused of being a boat for hire?
However, how do I tell people of the true costs without being liable or accused of being a boat for hire?
Dr. Lecter
Contributor
Not quite.
The language in the definition exempting "a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies" clarifies the requirement that "consideration" (i.e., anything of value) must be "contributed as a condition of carriage on the vessel" for them to become "for hire."
Asking for voluntary contributions after the voyage is over cannot, by definition, be a condition of carriage because the carriage has already been completed. Even asking in advance would probably be OK so long as the phrasing was such that it was clear that payment was not determinative of whether they'd be taken out: something like "Once we're back at the dock a voluntary contribution of $20 per person to cover the actual expenses of the trip, mainly gas, is common and would be greatly appreciated" should pass muster.
It's when your payment is the/a requirement to be taken out and back that the money becomes a "condition." Now, you may not be invited for additional trips if you don't chip in, but that doesn't matter in terms of what were the conditions for going on the trip you just went on.
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