how much do shops make on us???

[jmasin]

In my business the old saying is - If someone can provide a product better, cheaper and faster with a smile (or something unique and innovative that nobody else has) then they win.

EXACTLY!!

Again, ECON101.

If the LDS charges more, he should provide more value. For me personally, the LDS does for SOME items. Some equipment I want to buy from a person who I can talk to about it, yell at if it breaks etc. For other equipment this isn't really important to me, so I order online for cheaper.

It is very simple...

If the value an LDS provides isn't worth the cost to you, don't pay LDS prices. Done. They will either lower prices, improve services or go out of business.

 

[Crowley]

As usual, we have the "scuba professionals" rallying around the support your local dive shop flag. I do understand that as that is where your activity is based and supported.
But your responses are tainted by the obvious bias.

Shop around. Find the deal that is best for you.

I would suggest that this response is tainted by an equally obvious bias.

Value is the key to good business in the dive industry. It's odd how people complain how much they are being charged for a service and yet those very same people often complain about shoddy training crammed into a three day recreational course and they feel their instructor was not paying them enough attention. Cheap is cheap.

Before I continue - I will say that many instructors fully appreciate that they will never earn a lot from the dive industry because like me, it is a passion and a vocation, not something to make us financially rich. I work underwater in one of the most amazing environments on the planet, and that is wealth enough for me.

But, the demand for lo-cost budget diving is exactly what has bred the sausage factory dive centre - churn them in and churn them out and hope nobody has an accident because some of those instructors, by taking 5 days to do an Open water course, are effectively pressured into doing the sausage thing because they can fit three open water courses into 10 days instead of only two, and that might mean a substantial difference in their income, and it's not an easy industry to exist in before people say "well quit and find another job".

It is a market, and lo-cost dive centres are the first to go bust because they try to undercut an established market by driving the price down which earns a quick buck for the owner and leaves instructors unemployed and divers very poorly trained.

Value is the key. I work for a well established and well respected dive centre and we are by no means cheap but I defy anybody who has visted to say they received poor service. Most people appreciate that if you want quick and cheap that is exactly what you get but many of our customers come back again and again because they know we provide quality in a professional, safe and friendly diving and training environment and whilst they might pay a bit more than some of the local scumbags, they know they are getting value for money, with proper after-sales support if necessary.

Going back to an analogy my original post - if you want a quick fix burger you go to a fast food restaurant and pay a couple of bucks, if you want a really good burger you pay a bit more, and if you want to pay $100 for a burger there are some posh restaurants that will do exactly that. All three will provide you with food, and if you can afford luxury you go for the $100 burger but most would agree that the really good burger is better value for money, because it provides you with a better culinary experience, and doesn't give you diahrroea in the morning, without causing your bank manager to sweat too excessively.

I encourage people to shop around, look for what suits you best, but if you want cheap diving, then that is exactly what you will get. In my location that means poorly maintained boats with inexperienced crews, poorly maintained equipment and badly trainined and inexperienced dive guides and instructors.

If all the dive centres go out of business you can buy all the gear you want on the internet and there will be nobody to teach you how to use it. You will be confined to shore dives unless you can afford your own boat, or potentially, going to extremes, you will die because nobody told you not to hold your breath underwater.

Of course I'm on the side of the dive centre, it's my life, and I think I provide excellent value for money to the customers we have. None of us are perfect, and we make mistakes, but the number of people who lecture me about this and that and how it was better here or there is amazing. Two days ago I had two beautiful dives and I signed a logbook for a customer who had logged his dive as "just another reef"... I mean, he was diving in as close to paradise as you can get, but was dissatisfied because it wasn't a world war II shipwreck.

Value, I guess, has different meanings to different people. For some, that will only be perfection and watching the whale sharks humping; for the cheapskates, that will only mean rock bottom price. Thankfully, for most divers, they understand the meaning of quality service for the price they are paying. I'm sorry if people have had bad experiences with their local dive centre or resort, but ultimately, somebody somewhere in the dive industry has to take a paycheck to provide the service that all divers - including myself - require.

This is not a rant, it's as objective as I can make it, given that I am an employee of the industy. Also, I got paid today so I can afford two cents now

*plinkety plink*

C.

 

[Herk_Man]

WOW i am shocked by what all you are telling me, i guess no matter what we all are still bending over for the dive shops in a big way, no matter how much they tell ya how good of a deal you are getting:depressed:

I completely disagree with this assessment. If you don't like the prices, go elsewhere. It's the nature of capitalism. And if you can't find a better price elsewhere there are a limited number of reasons for this, and most don't include greed.

People so often forget that running a business takes money (overhead). And lots of it. Ever look at what it costs to rent a storefront? What it costs to heat and cool that building? What it costs to maintain that building (although sometimes that is covered by the landlord.) What it costs to buy and maintain clean gas compressors capable of mixing gas and filling to 3000+ psi? What it costs to pay people to be there all day to wait on you when you come in? I could go on and on and on.

The costs of running a business are huge. And that cost has to be passed on to the customer or the business will no longer exist.

In this day and age, we have another option where the costs are greatly reduced. It's called the internet. But with the advantages come disadvantages. You can't try before you buy. They don't offer classes. You don't get very much personal attention or advice. I could go on and on. But when you consider the minuses, and compare it to what you save, I think the plusses of the LDS weigh in heavily.

I email my LDS frequently and get great information and opinions on everything from gear to trips to basic diving information. I appreciate having that. And guess what, I don't get charged for it.

So before you lambast an operation for having a 100% markup on gear, first consider how much of that percentage actually goes in the pocket of the owner. I'd wager that it is pretty slim once you take out all the overhead. The guy that runs that shop has a family and his own bills to pay. And he may even, gasp, want to use some of his profits to take a vacation. I know, it's horrible, that's "your" money he's using to enjoy himself a couple weeks out of the year.

You want to make a comparison to businesses in general. Go find out what Walmart pays for a printed T-shirt that they have hanging on their racks for $15. (Here's a hint: They didn't get it for >=$7.50)

 

[gcbryan]

I honestly find it fascinating that so many of us volunteer our time to work with classes and get so little in return. The shop through which Peter teaches has an AMAZING dive staff, with a ton of very dedicated divemasters who are essential to the shop's way of running their instruction (which is with tons of time and fantastic ratios for dive shops in this area). But the DMs really get very little (and have to buy their own Nitrox!)

I know dive shops are not highly profitable businesses. They have high overhead costs, and only survive on the periodic high ticket purchases. But they seem to be amazingly dependent on volunteer labor, and volunteers in most activities expect something in return.

I think volunteers usually don't expect much in return that's why they're volunteers. Employees expect something in return.

I've volunteered at a local aquarium. What I got in return was being able to help the public and be around the marine life.

When you help out at a dive shop you help new divers and generally get free air and get exposure to another kind of dive experience.

It's doesn't seem that much different to me although I do actually sort of get your point in that I have no interest in becoming a DM and spending the kind of time around a dive shop that doing this frequently involves.

The only difference there is that if you have to pay to become a DM and then all you get is free air that I don't understand but people do it all the time so obviously it is worth it to those that do it.

Some instructors will provide free DM training to those who will agree to help out with their classes for a year.

 

[widget]

If all the dive centres go out of business you can buy all the gear you want on the internet and there will be nobody to teach you how to use it. You will be confined to shore dives unless you can afford your own boat, or potentially, going to extremes, you will die because nobody told you not to hold your breath underwater.

C.

To be honest, I cant see that ever happening, I have been in this industry for over 30 years and learnt to dive by driving 60 kilometres across town to the one and only shop around, and if I remember now there was probably still only 3 or 4 of us on the course, and we were only there because we WANTED to dive, it wasnt a fad or something we were going to try out for fun or becuase we wanted to visit some exotic destination - we had a yearning to learn to dive.

So, lets take an example, if an area of say 2 million folk has say 5 shops, qualifying say 10 students on average per month (we are been hypothetical here) thats 50 new students a month entering the sport, and, hopefully buying gear, going on trips, doing future courses etc.

Now lets say 2 close down, taking a possible 20 new students per month out of the equation, do you think that the 3 remaining shops will pick all of them up?

I really dont think so, actually, I would say, if 5 are picked up its a lot, the others will just fall by the wayside and do something else.

What I am saying is, every shop that closes down removes divers from the equation, when I started diving there was one shop doing 5 students a month, now there are 5 doing 10 a month, - you cant grow the industry when shops are disappearing.

I agree largely with what you say (and Yes I have dived in Sharm a few times), but its a mass market destination and very unlike your local neighbourhood dive store who rely on a very small customer base for their existance, losing one student to them can literally mean the differance between paying the rent this month on time or not.

 

[Herk_Man]

To be honest, I cant see that ever happening, I have been in this industry for over 30 years and learnt to dive by driving 60 kilometres across town to the one and only shop around, and if I remember now there was probably still only 3 or 4 of us on the course, and we were only there because we WANTED to dive, it wasnt a fad or something we were going to try out for fun or becuase we wanted to visit some exotic destination - we had a yearning to learn to dive.

So, lets take an example, if an area of say 2 million folk has say 5 shops, qualifying say 10 students on average per month (we are been hypothetical here) thats 50 new students a month entering the sport, and, hopefully buying gear, going on trips, doing future courses etc.

Now lets say 2 close down, taking a possible 20 new students per month out of the equation, do you think that the 3 remaining shops will pick all of them up?

I really dont think so, actually, I would say, if 5 are picked up its a lot, the others will just fall by the wayside and do something else.

What I am saying is, every shop that closes down removes divers from the equation, when I started diving there was one shop doing 5 students a month, now there are 5 doing 10 a month, - you cant grow the industry when shops are disappearing.

I agree largely with what you say (and Yes I have dived in Sharm a few times), but its a mass market destination and very unlike your local neighbourhood dive store who rely on a very small customer base for their existance, losing one student to them can mean the differance between paying the rent this month or not.

Widg, I don't think he was suggesting that was a serious possibility. I believe it was meant to emphasize a point. Many people enjoy the benefits provided by an LDS. But if dive shops start closing because of the internet, then the ones that survive will be able to start raising prices to meet a higher demand at their location. The hope would be that those higher prices will bring some higher levels of service as well but no guarantees on that.

Basic supply and demand.

 

[Crowley]

Yes yes for sure I don't mean to imply that all centres will go out of business just because of the Internet and yes there is a difference between the place I work and the small local dive centre of course; however I have worked at a very very small dive centre indeed and one customer proportionally makes a big difference to the income of a centre like that. And widget is also correct, many divers will not transfer to another centre; they might take up another recreational activity which is more conveniently located.

Dive shops of any kind that fail to provide a quality service and value for your money will inveitably go out of business, regardless of their prices; as others have pointed out, it's simple economics. The same rules apply to any business.

Once upon a time my dive operation consisted of two jeeps and a compressor, now it's big business, because the owners look at what divers wanted and provided them with it, and we have an extremely loyal customer base. Nowadays, even I have to admit that sharm can get a bit ridiculous, but I still love it here.

Anyway this is going a bit off topic. As before, shop around, try different places if you are able to, decide for yourselves. My student yesterday tried 4 of the big centres here and after approaching surly and uninterested counter staff at three of them, decided my centre was the place for her after being greeted by happy, smiling, encouraging staff. Value for money, customer service, professionalism, quality. These apply to any dive centre, be it a vast multinational operation or a couple of folks running a small shop in the middle of nowhere.

Cheers,

C.

 

[Stu S.]

but if you want cheap diving, then that is exactly what you will get. C.

Yes. If it costs a lot, I can't do it. Although not a lifetime mizer, having two kids in college (one is a diver) means a limited "fun budget" for a while. We can't blow the budget on gear, so we buy only what we really need, and shop for price. We also know the value of diving at state parks. No live-aboards this year. Load up the truck and go. Retailers we use have met our needs. Both local and internet retailers can satisfy us.

In order to thrive, the dive merchant needs to reach out to all of us. We had a store in my town that was high-end tech diving and it didn't last a year. The merchants that are hanging in through these tough years are those who reach out to all divers; budget, deluxe and tech.

 

[Crowley]

I completely agree - and there's nothing wrong with diving on a budget; my shop caters to exactly that - the resort I work at has become quite expensive and that puts the cost of diving at my centre up a great deal because the rates and services here are more exensive, but just 80km north we have a backpacker resort where you can dive for half the price, rent gear for 1/5th of the cost and live in backpacker accomodation for minimum price. We simply could not afford to offer those prices here, but the location north of us does not have the same exacting overheads.

A good LDS will of course offer things to all divers, and as a dive instructor, if I went on holiday I would be looking for budget diving as well, but there is a difference between "budget" and "cheap". Inexpensive diving does not have to mean poor quality, and that is the overall crux of my ramblings. It's the defacto complaint that the LDS is an automatic rip-off that gets to me, when most are genuinely trying to help.

Cheers

C.

 

[ocbeachbum]

Several shops in my area have folded, including two that were "right on the water" There are plenty of wrecks out there to dive on, fish to look at, and a group of people who do those things, but the only surviving LDS is thirty miles inland and is an adjunct to a small engine repair shop. I think the owner might break even on the diving stuff on a good year. Even that hybrid model barely survives, so real innovation will be needed to make the LDS profitable again.