OP
It would be an honor to be flamed by you, Rob!
How Rigorous Should Training Be?
- Thread starter JahJahwarrior
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PfcAJ
Contributor
The issue with that is that almost NO ONE thinks their cave instructor sucks, even if they really do. There is nothing to compare it with. The psychology is a bit more complicated than just that, but I don't feel like going into it.
For instance, a certain instructor only takes his students on training dive at Ginnie Springs. This instructor gets rave reviews on here, yet I think he's doing a huge disservice to his students. High flow, pull and glide or pull and hide?
I actually went on a dive with one of his students years ago at Peacock. The kid couldn't even do a frog kick. Srysly. But always gets good reviews on the boards.
Another highly "recommended" instructor teaches cave RB classes and lets students kneel. Mind blowing.
LiteHedded
Contributor
people do think very highly of johnn----er....the ginnie instructor in question.
but this student of his (and others) was atrocious
but this student of his (and others) was atrocious
Like AJ states, almost everyone thinks their instructor is the best. Even if they don't, they likely won't admit it because it could be construed as a reflection of their own skills.
As for logging dives on an open forum/website, I wouldn't log half the dives I do. If I were only diving JB/Devil's, it probably wouldn't be an issue, but I don't necessarily want to publish/advertise where I'm diving and what I'm doing. I'm pretty sure others would feel the same way. But I suppose I could log in and make up a bunch of dives...
LiteHedded
Contributor
oh hell with it. johnny richards and paul heinerth. everyone is always whispering and hinting about it. there it is.
The OP asked:
Me, I am, and will always be, a "Line Following Cave Tourist" and have very little, or no, interest in exploration.
I'm not at all sure what problem you are trying to solve.
Silly me, I'm not aware of any significant number of fatalities amongst Cave Divers that can be traced to the issues you appear to be identifying. Admittedly I don't track Cave fatalities very much but I'm not aware of any particular pattern -- EXCEPT for people not "following the rules" the S.E. set forth.
Me, I am, and will always be, a "Line Following Cave Tourist" and have very little, or no, interest in exploration.
I'm not at all sure what problem you are trying to solve.
LiteHedded
Contributor
there was a diver that couldn't do a non silting kick (and passed) and died in a siltout at wayne's world. it at least contributed
Kevin Carlisle
Contributor
One thing that helped me was knowing just because I was Full Cave didnt mean I was on the same level as Rob or Ben. I dove a lot with Ben M and looked to him as a mentor, that was as valuable to me as a years worth of classes.
PfcAJ
Contributor
My thought has always been that a short, cheap, easily accessible cave class attracts people with low self-goals, low standards, and an inherent complacent attitude. The "good enough" syndrome, as I like to call it.
Minimizing fatalities is a noble goal, but what about minimizing cave damage and close calls? Fatalities make the news, the boards, the gossip, but all the other stuff DOESN'T. And why not? Poor individual skills? Lack of planning ability? Both of those things can (often) be traced back to shoddy instruction.
Minimizing fatalities is a noble goal, but what about minimizing cave damage and close calls? Fatalities make the news, the boards, the gossip, but all the other stuff DOESN'T. And why not? Poor individual skills? Lack of planning ability? Both of those things can (often) be traced back to shoddy instruction.
OP
The website would have people do things like check off systems they used in class, so it would have some quantative things. I could look and see that so and so instructor has done XXX certifications, XX of which were this level, XX were this level, etc. XXX of those dives by students were at XX cave, XX at XX, XX at XX, etc. Then we'd get super biased anecdotal reviews as well 
Good thoughts Peter, # of systems is not one of the accident analysis points. However, could sticking to only one system, as the recently deceased at Peacock did, be a symptom of a deeper, mental instability that means she shouldn't have been diving at all?
Litehedded, are you referring to the most recent fatality at WW? I know one of the divers did not pass cavern/intro, are you saying that the diver who was intro couldn't frog kick? I never dove with either, so I don't know much about their skills. Kudo's to the first diver's instructor for refusing to pass him multiple times, that takes guts and many instructors pass students who imho shouldn't pass.
Loving the thoughts. This section was too dead for a bit there.
Good thoughts Peter, # of systems is not one of the accident analysis points. However, could sticking to only one system, as the recently deceased at Peacock did, be a symptom of a deeper, mental instability that means she shouldn't have been diving at all?
Litehedded, are you referring to the most recent fatality at WW? I know one of the divers did not pass cavern/intro, are you saying that the diver who was intro couldn't frog kick? I never dove with either, so I don't know much about their skills. Kudo's to the first diver's instructor for refusing to pass him multiple times, that takes guts and many instructors pass students who imho shouldn't pass.
Loving the thoughts. This section was too dead for a bit there.
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