How to ensure my safety when there is no guide dive with me?

[Louie]

Well being the newbie on these boards, I've been lurking here but not posting. Now that everyone has beat each other to a pulp, I'm going to add my 2 cents which is worth about half that so take it for what it is.

We new divers are FREAKING OUT about 99% of the time.

We not only feel incompetent we usually KNOW we are incompetent.

I suspect the OP is still at this stage of his diving.

I suspect this because when I headed to ITK for my dives 10-19, my greatest concern (aside from sharks) was being paired with someone equally as inexperienced. I was planning to hire a guide for all of my dives at $50 a pop. Because 2 newbies almost guarantees an incident. But fortuantely, some very kind SB'rs took me underwing, dove with me, and gave me confidence.

So yes, we newbies are idiots. The only way we are going to become less idiotic is if we dive more. The only way we are going to dive more SAFELY is to ask stupid questions.

So please try to keep that in mind when we idiots post in the new scuba sections. I rolled my eyes too when I read his post as I had the same gut reaction - here comes a future A&I , but I reminded myself what I felt like on dive #10 headed to the Ocean when I've only been a quarry girl. As some of you will recall, I asked my stupid questions. If we scare away the idiots, they may show up on your next dive vacation and be your insta-buddy - without the advantage of having received some good advice before hand.

Ok, I'll step off my 'leave the newbie alone' soap box now. Besides, I see a pop tart that needs my attention.

I don't know why the original post provoked so much derision from some people. I imagine they don't want to recall their earlier days.

But don't let this sort of a debate put you off. You're absolutely right. More training, experience AND questions are important for development and confidence in your diving life. It's the nature of forums like this that there will be a few unhelpful or derisory comments. You'll probably find that most fellow divers and professionals are helpful and responsible individuals who will give informative and useful replies to reasonable questions.

It's better to ask the question EARLY in the process than to have an "Oh crap I don't know what to do..." situation.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I personally do not belive that most of the posts here are apology worthy. Some people were harsh but not rude. There may have been a couple that crossed a line but point me at a thread where at least one or two doesn't. The OP should instead get advice which is exactly what most people gave in one form or another.

People here (perhaps myself included) have automatically assumed that some of the most complex navigation dives were involved here with the OP. Most places that the OP stated were waters that I would think would be teeming with aquatic life if planned properly. I am the type of diver who, as long as there is something to look at, would rather look at what is right beneath me rather than in front of me. I tend to move very little when there is something to look at and love it. As long as there is lots to look at, one really does not have to travel far from starting point to have a GREAT dive. That kind of dive is easy to navigate. What stops the OP from doing that? This way they can enjoy a dive without the DM. This will not apply to every location but if sites are picked to suit this apparent requirement, then they should do just fine. I still say that their education was either missed or not fully absorbed if even the most basic navigation skills were not discussed and retained. In most locales where the diving is drift diving, then they typically require a DM in the water anyways so that is covered.

If, for whatever reason the OP needs a DM in the water with them to feel "Safe" and not just they won't get lost, then I truly suggest that they get out of the water and take a refresher. Even better, take the OW again. It will be the best money they can spend because a diver that is certain they will be unable to handle any emergencies....truly is an A&I statistic waiting to happen. An overconfident (cocky diver) diver is just as much a statistic as well though.

......Because 2 newbies almost guarantees an incident.........

This is absolutely UNTRUE. In fact, it could not be farther from the truth. 2 new divers does not guarantee anything if they learned anything in their dive training. If it does then man am I the luckiest guy in the world because I hooked up with my dive buddy when I had about 15-20 dives and I was the "more experienced" diver(I obviously use that term loosely). We dove in conditions ranging from heavy current to 1-2 foot visibility all before we hit 50 dives together. Even a NEW diver must be able to plan and execute the simplest of dives. I do agree with you that ANY diver (not even just a new one) will learn a tremendous amount from having a wonderful mentor (as you have). 2 new divers, just need to know what they learned, and not to exceed their comfort or training. They can ask lots of questions of people (as you do - and yours are rarely "stupid" but instead are well thought out) about diving, sites, scenarios.....whatever they want. Bottom line is, as long as both divers know the TRUTH about the other diver (skills, trainging, concerns, weak points etc..) then they can have tremendous dives together and execute them safely.

 

[Sas]

We new divers are FREAKING OUT about 99% of the time.

We not only feel incompetent we usually KNOW we are incompetent.

I really do not think you should try to speak for all new divers in your post... Many new divers I know are vastly overconfident for example so are not "freaking out" or aware of their incompetency. This is a big problem, as is divers who are too nervous to dive unsupervised.

Because 2 newbies almost guarantees an incident.

If you feel this way about your abilities, perhaps it might be a good idea for you to get further instruction? It is concerning that you think so little of your own abilities and other new divers that you would be expecting an incident when diving with an inexperienced diver. The incident rate in diving is very low, even given the low standards of most OW courses. This indicates to me that scuba is very safe even for incompetent people - but, when something does go wrong, the damage can be huge, even if the problem was easily avoided or dealt with.

So yes, we newbies are idiots. The only way we are going to become less idiotic is if we dive more. The only way we are going to dive more SAFELY is to ask stupid questions.

I do not think newbie = idiot. I have met few true idiots whilst diving (and this has not been correlated to experience in the water). Also if one has adequate instruction, they tend to be fairly safe when starting to dive unsupervised. One sign of adequate instruction is knowing one's limits and if you follow your limits you should not be idiotic in the water or needlessly unsafe. I have never ever been one to take to diving naturally and I hooked up with one of my regular buddies at dive 19 (same experience as me). We dived in all sorts of conditions (similar to ScubaSteve's story actually) but just stuck to what we were comfortable with and whilst we have had incidents, they have all been manageable (I had two OOA buddies to deal with, before dive 50, and due to all my practice and training, I was able to deal with these fine, despite little natural ability in diving ).

I still have moments like that . . It takes everything in me to suck it up, not panic, and get on with the diving.

Again this points to you being very uncomfortable in the water. You should not get such overwhelming anxiety that you need to take everything in you to not panic. Don't just think about yourself, think about a buddy you may not be able to help if you are on the verge of panic. Whilst no one is panic proof diving should not cause such anxiety very often at all.

 

[BettyRubble]

This is absolutely UNTRUE. In fact, it could not be farther from the truth. 2 new divers does not guarantee anything if they learned anything in their dive training. If it does then man am I the luckiest guy in the world because I hooked up with my dive buddy when I had about 15-20 dives and I was the "more experienced" diver(I obviously use that term loosely). We dove in conditions ranging from heavy current to 1-2 foot visibility all before we hit 50 dives together. Even a NEW diver must be able to plan and execute the simplest of dives. I do agree with you that ANY diver (not even just a new one) will learn a tremendous amount from having a wonderful mentor (as you have). 2 new divers, just need to know what they learned, and not to exceed their comfort or training. They can ask lots of questions of people (as you do - and yours are rarely "stupid" but instead are well thought out) about diving, sites, scenarios.....whatever they want. Bottom line is, as long as both divers know the TRUTH about the other diver (skills, trainging, concerns, weak points etc..) then they can have tremendous dives together and execute them safely.

Given the amount of macho 'I know what I'm doing' stuff I've seen to date, I think what you suggest is not reality. It has been dumb luck somtimes that more A&I's haven't happened. Heck, I've not even seen a proper buddy check done after my cert dives. I sometimes get funny looks when I'm looking over their equipment and making sure I at least know where their releases are! Now I'm only 20 dives in, so it is a small base to make a judgement on. But while I would like to believe what you propose is reality most of the time, thus far I haven't seen it. In situations where trouble arises, my bet is on the experienced diver, not the newbie. So two newbies together do not add up to more experience -- but hopefully enough experience between the two to avoid disaster.

But of course, I haven't seen a dry suit where a person comes out dry either so perhaps its all perspective . . .

I really do not think you should try to speak for all new divers in your post... Many new divers I know are vastly overconfident for example so are not "freaking out" or aware of their incompetency. This is a big problem, as is divers who are too nervous to dive unsupervised. .

I think my term "freaking out' is being defined as panic. That is not what I mean. I should have used better words (Thal help me out here Mr. Dictionary Man! ) What I mean is we have more anxiety at this stage. Veterans are far more comfortable obviously. We newbies (at least if we are honest) are aware we need more experience before we really know what we don't know.

If you feel this way about your abilities, perhaps it might be a good idea for you to get further instruction? It is concerning that you think so little of your own abilities and other new divers that you would be expecting an incident when diving with an inexperienced diver. The incident rate in diving is very low, even given the low standards of most OW courses. This indicates to me that scuba is very safe even for incompetent people - but, when something does go wrong, the damage can be huge, even if the problem was easily avoided or dealt with. .

Already on it. Working on scheduling my AOW for September. Trust me, you are preaching to the choir.

Scuba is safe when keeping the boundaries and training in mind. I do expect that new divers are not going to know how to do it all well, so I try to dive with people who have the same mentality I do . . learn every dive how to improve. Diving with people who have the mentality that they know it all (no matter what their level of diving) is an accident waiting to happen. Experienced divers are going to teach me more then new ones -- even if all I do is observe them and their procedures. That's just reality.

I do not think newbie = idiot. I have met few true idiots whilst diving (and this has not been correlated to experience in the water). Also if one has adequate instruction, they tend to be fairly safe when starting to dive unsupervised.

Really? Good to know you and you are in the minority then. As I've watch this thread and others where apparently the very definition of newbie is idiot. Good to know you are not among those. However, when I say idiot I mean in the sport of scuba verses actual intelligence. My high IQ doesn't buy me much in scuba except the ability to learn faster -- if I choose to apply myself to the task.

I agree on the adequate training but well, defining adequate training for newbies is a whole other thread. Frankly, I wish newbie training had at least 2 more days of material. There are too many holes in rescue, navigation and other critical components to safe diving.

Again this points to you being very uncomfortable in the water. You should not get such overwhelming anxiety that you need to take everything in you to not panic. Don't just think about yourself, think about a buddy you may not be able to help if you are on the verge of panic. Whilst no one is panic proof diving should not cause such anxiety very often at all.

Actually I'm a fish in the water. I grew up in it and love it. My anxiety comes from wanting to brain stamp all the 'rules' of diving. That takes time. When I am suiting up and getting in the water I am running through all my checklists. I am afraid I'll forget something. That is my anxiety. Once I have more experience I am confident this will go away. I am fortunate not to have had a panic moment, but have had a few things that got under my skin.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Given the amount of macho 'I know what I'm doing' stuff I've seen to date, I think what you suggest is not reality. It has been dumb luck somtimes that more A&I's haven't happened. Heck, I've not even seen a proper buddy check done after my cert dives. I sometimes get funny looks when I'm looking over their equipment and making sure I at least know where their releases are! Now I'm only 20 dives in, so it is a small base to make a judgement on. But while I would like to believe what you propose is reality most of the time, thus far I haven't seen it. In situations where trouble arises, my bet is on the experienced diver, not the newbie. So two newbies together do not add up to more experience -- but hopefully enough experience between the two to avoid disaster.

But of course, I haven't seen a dry suit where a person comes out dry either so perhaps its all perspective . . .

But a macho "I know what I am doing" diver is definitely an accident waiting to happen. Hence my statement from my last post

An overconfident (cocky diver) diver is just as much a statistic as well though.

And while a buddy check should be part of every dive, many people do become relaxed on them. That, as you point out, is a sad reality. But freshly minted divers (or "newbies") in my area tended to do the proper things at first....or at least those that I dove with. With a new diver, I will not let them in the water with me until I have gone through a quick buddy check so maybe that is why this is reality for me and not you. You need to force the issue no matter who you are diving with. If they refuse or have a "you are wasting my time newbie" bad attitude, call the dive. Better to do that than have something happen.

When I first dove with my regular dive buddy (now have probably 250+ dives together), we always did a buddy check. 250 dives later, we discuss the check unless something in the equipment has changed at which point we physically touch again. But this still does not change the fact that 2 new divers does not guarantee an incident unless their training was incomplete or rushed or if they do not stay well within their comfort and training zone. But then the same goes for a diver with 2000 dives. If they exceed their training or comfort, then they are just as likely to become a statistic.

The reality is, divers truly SHOULD BE safe to dive on their own (with a buddy I mean) in conditions that are equal to or better than that in which they certified immediately following certification. If they cannot, they missed something in the training. If they seek a more experienced diver because they want a mentor to dive with and learn from.....then I really respect them as a diver. A diver that has stopped learning is a diver that has stopped diving (or is just waiting for the inevitable accident to happen).

 

[Sas]

Given the amount of macho 'I know what I'm doing' stuff I've seen to date, I think what you suggest is not reality. It has been dumb luck somtimes that more A&I's haven't happened. Heck, I've not even seen a proper buddy check done after my cert dives. I sometimes get funny looks when I'm looking over their equipment and making sure I at least know where their releases are! Now I'm only 20 dives in, so it is a small base to make a judgement on. But while I would like to believe what you propose is reality most of the time, thus far I haven't seen it. In situations where trouble arises, my bet is on the experienced diver, not the newbie. So two newbies together do not add up to more experience -- but hopefully enough experience between the two to avoid disaster.

You have been unlucky, if you have experienced a lot of macho stuff after only 20 dives... Hopefully you will meet better people to dive with in the future. I have met a few divers with ego, but they are very far from the majority (though I imagine by reading some diving forums, one might get the impression that there is a higher proportion of egotistical and macho divers than there actually is ...).

But of course, I haven't seen a dry suit where a person comes out dry either so perhaps its all perspective . . .

Experience perhaps My first few dives in a drysuit were not dry... but it is rare that I get a leak now!

I think my term "freaking out' is being defined as panic. That is not what I mean. I should have used better words (Thal help me out here Mr. Dictionary Man! ) What I mean is we have more anxiety at this stage. Veterans are far more comfortable obviously. We newbies (at least if we are honest) are aware we need more experience before we really know what we don't know.

Yes, it did sound like you were referring to panic. But my main point was is that new divers do not necessarily feel incompetent or anxiety so I did not agree with you deciding to speak on behalf of all new divers. Some are stupidly overconfident, and others are just really fast learners (like my first regular buddy, he has always taken to everything practical very easily and after 20 dives he was definitely not incompetent in the water). YMMV

Already on it. Working on scheduling my AOW for September. Trust me, you are preaching to the choir.

September is a while away - do you have any experienced divers around? When I was new I was worried about asking experienced divers to dive with me as I did not want to get in the way. I wish I had started asking people sooner as most are more than willing to help out newbies. Whilst I have not been diving very long myself, I know that I do not mind diving with new(er) divers if they want to be introduced to local diving and so on. It is not what I want to do every dive, but it is fun most of the time.

Really? Good to know you and you are in the minority then. As I've watch this thread and others where apparently the very definition of newbie is idiot. Good to know you are not among those. However, when I say idiot I mean in the sport of scuba verses actual intelligence. My high IQ doesn't buy me much in scuba except the ability to learn faster -- if I choose to apply myself to the task.

It's the internet, there are always accusations of idiocy It's not scuba related imho! I think if you are implying idiot to mean inexperience it is a poor choice of words. An idiot to me is someone with a bad attitude and there are new, intermediate and experienced divers like that.

I agree on the adequate training but well, defining adequate training for newbies is a whole other thread. Frankly, I wish newbie training had at least 2 more days of material. There are too many holes in rescue, navigation and other critical components to safe diving.

True, at least two

 

[BettyRubble]

You have been unlucky, if you have experienced a lot of macho stuff after only 20 dives... Hopefully you will meet better people to dive with in the future. I have met a few divers with ego, but they are very far from the majority (though I imagine by reading some diving forums, one might get the impression that there is a higher proportion of egotistical and macho divers than there actually is ...).

Fortunately, I dive with a great group. They have taught me alot. We joke alot about what we see out there especially in the 'student' side of the quarry we dive locally.

September is a while away - do you have any experienced divers around? When I was new I was worried about asking experienced divers to dive with me as I did not want to get in the way. I wish I had started asking people sooner as most are more than willing to help out newbies. Whilst I have not been diving very long myself, I know that I do not mind diving with new(er) divers if they want to be introduced to local diving and so on. It is not what I want to do every dive, but it is fun most of the time.

I'm diving alot locally and am blessed with a great group to hang with and a NAUI instructor who rocks. The budget is dictating the AOW training schedule. So unless I hit the lottery, it's September. Next will be rescue. You are so right about being intimidated at first. But fortunately for me, the group must have sensed that because they all stepped right up and offered to dive with me. They tolerate my flailing, stupid questions, and bad sense of humor too. So they rock!

It's the internet, there are always accusations of idiocy It's not scuba related imho! I think if you are implying idiot to mean inexperience it is a poor choice of words. An idiot to me is someone with a bad attitude and there are new, intermediate and experienced divers like that.

Semantics are important - I have to remember we are an international board too. Those who know me would have realized my point but obviously that is going to be missed on a board. I'll do better next time.

 

[Walter]

We new divers are FREAKING OUT about 99% of the time.

While that is true for a large number of new divers, others have received better training and are not frweaking out at all.

We not only feel incompetent we usually KNOW we are incompetent.

This is why, in my opinion, we have such an extremely high drop out rate. Better training from the start is the solution.

I suspect the OP is still at this stage of his diving.

I suspect you are right. I hope he accepts responsibility for his own safety, even when diving with a guide and works past this issue.

2 newbies almost guarantees an incident.

Nope. Even when it's two poorly trained newbies, nothing goes wrong most of the time. When it's two well trained newbies, incidents are extremely rare.

So yes, we newbies are idiots. The only way we are going to become less idiotic is if we dive more. The only way we are going to dive more SAFELY is to ask stupid questions.

There is a big difference between being an idiot and not having received good training. Idiots lack intelligence. This cannot be corrected. Not having undergone adequate training can be corrected. Even extremely intelligent people do stupid things from time to time.

If I felt that way about diving (fear and lack of self-confidence) I don't think I would continue to do it.

I agree, yet a great deal of instruction is designed to set people up to be in that situation. It may not be a goal, but they're OK with it or they would change standards.

I personally do not belive that most of the posts here are apology worthy.

True, but even more basic, one person can never truly apologize for another.

It has been dumb luck somtimes that more A&I's haven't happened.

No arguments there. How do we correct it? I think we correct it by educating people on how to choose a SCUBA instructor.

In situations where trouble arises, my bet is on the experienced diver, not the newbie.

Everything else being equal, I agree. On the other hand, if it's a newbie has had excellent training and the experienced diver had a typical class and has made fewer than 50 dives, I'd bet the other way.

I think my term "freaking out' is being defined as panic. That is not what I mean.

I think it was clear you didn't mean panic.

Already on it. Working on scheduling my AOW for September. Trust me, you are preaching to the choir.

Don't accept the typical AOW class. I would suggest fining an SEI instructor and taking the Advanced Plus class. AOW is useless.

My high IQ doesn't buy me much in scuba except the ability to learn faster

That's nothing to sneeze at, but it actually gets you more, much more. You think of things, on your own, that some others don't ever understand. You'll make quicker, better decisions (assuming you have the same set of fact with which to work) in a crunch than some others.

I agree on the adequate training but well, defining adequate training for newbies is a whole other thread.

Actually, several of them (hundreds?), but the questions to ask sticky I linked above is a good place to start.

 

[ScubaSteve]

........

I am fortunate enough to know you and the group that you dive with and I have absolutely no question about the company you keep. You have chosen Mentors very wisely. What you may be less confident of right now, they will get you through. If you ever feel anything even remotely close to panic of any sort, get yourself out of the water to deal with it. Panic underwater kills. It changes how we think and process information......it can reduce even the most experiecned diver to a statistic if it is not handled properly. That is where further training and experience come in. Those allow a diver to take that moment of panic and prevent it immediately before it has a chance to take over. To have a moement of apprehension is one thing.....if what you experience is bordering on panic, call the dive. It is your right AND your responsibility to yourself and your loved ones. Better to call a dive and discuss it on the surface than to have an unfortunate accident.

 

[BettyRubble]

I am fortunate enough to know you and the group that you dive with and I have absolutely no question about the company you keep. You have chosen Mentors very wisely. What you may be less confident of right now, they will get you through. . . . To have a moement of apprehension is one thing.....if what you experience is bordering on panic, call the dive. It is your right AND your responsibility to yourself and your loved ones. Better to call a dive and discuss it on the surface than to have an unfortunate accident.

Completely agree. Several in the group have also told me flat out, call the dive anytime for any reason no questions asked. It helps me to know that I won't be ridiculed (by them anyway) if I call it.