Codyjp
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I guess you've found your level. After all you are selling stick to jam into the reefs. It's all clear now. Two Tanked Productions HD & SD Underwater Productions and video services
I am happy with today's level of Diver Training!
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OP
Papa_Bear
Contributor
Wow, we gauge the safety of Airlines by the number of safe flights and yes the number of people not killed = number of safe miles traveled or accident free miles, just another way to say it! So yes the industry gets a "B" from me as deaths have not gone up per thousand in OW! Compared to the extensive training that was done in the seventies that is saying something! It says the industry has changed and people aren't dying in record numbers! They get a "B"!
DaleC
Contributor
If you took a sampling of divers 40-50 years ago who dove in unknown OW conditions with limited training, rudimentary equipment and unattended by DM's or guides and they had say a 5% (for discussion sake) accident rate...
and
Compare it to todays OW diver who mainly dives well trodden resort destinations with better access to training, equipment and are usually escorted by DM's who baby sit and do all the dive planning for them and they also have a 5% accident rate...
Is that anything really to be happy about?
Having said that I was generally content with my OW training though (in retrospect) see areas that could have used improvement. I don't think that opinion makes me a "glass half empty" "can't" sort of person or neccesitates me starting my own agency.
and
Compare it to todays OW diver who mainly dives well trodden resort destinations with better access to training, equipment and are usually escorted by DM's who baby sit and do all the dive planning for them and they also have a 5% accident rate...
Is that anything really to be happy about?
Having said that I was generally content with my OW training though (in retrospect) see areas that could have used improvement. I don't think that opinion makes me a "glass half empty" "can't" sort of person or neccesitates me starting my own agency.
vladimir
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The airline analogy is flawed, because there is little room in aviation accidents for outcomes between death and a safe trip. But we certainly wouldn't consider a dive ending in a DCS hit and paralysis a safe trip, would we? How about something much more common, like ear barotrauma; would it have been a safe dive if afterwards you had to be treated by a doctor for months to retain full hearing?
OP
Papa_Bear
Contributor
Well Dale, your numbers don't work! The activity has sen a marked increase in numbers and hours of exposure! Yet the rate per thousand is not anywhere near the same! Diving as taught by the majority if instructors and agencies is a VERY safe activity that can and is enjoyed by more people than ever! There is always room for improvement even at the DMV! So all I have been saying is the industry gets a "B" and is doing a very good job introducing new people to the joys of diving! You rated you experience as "Generally Content" and that is a good rating, as far as you attitude about life? Can't say don't know you!
Anyway check your numbers, they are really off!
DaleC
Contributor
I don't have any numbers. I was just using some generic figures to illustrate that todays mainstream dive profile differs from yesterdays mainstream dive profile and so can't be compared apples to apples.
I was satisfied with my training but I am also a self motivated person who doesn't have a problem filling the gaps. I recognise that not everybody thinks like me (thank goodness).
I think the real problem is that some agencies are not entirely "honest" about what they are delivering. The primary market for one agency (the one I am familiar with) seems to be the resort/vacation diver (where most sites are known, the dive plan is developed and DM/guides are available). If that is the market then the course called OW is sufficient IMO.
There are other divers however, who dive in more challenging circumstances. They need/should be able to plan and execute a dive by themselves (sans DM/Guide) but they also take the same OW course as the vacation diver. In this case I think the course could be seen as lacking.
The agency I know of counters this deficit by offering the AOW course as well as other specialty classes but I think it is a misnomer to call their initial course OW if it doesn't fully prepare the diver for OW.
I don't think this is a big deal though and it could be remedied easily by simply renaming/restructuring the courses. Todays OW course could be called "Resort diver" (or something like it) and a seperate course OW+AOW could be called "Independant diver" (or something like it). The designations would be more honest regarding the skills of its graduates and a simular sales structure would apply. The "resort diver" could upgrade to "independant diver" by simply taking the missing modules. I don't think many would be offended by these designations as vacation divers seldom want to dive in the harsher home conditions and probably don't want to be independant divers anyways. As you say some people just want to splash around and look at the fishes.
It may seem to be a semantics game but to say that one course can produce an OW diver for the vacation model as well as the independant model doesn't work. The agencies are trying to paint with too broad a brush. To which dive group does the agency set its standards? It seems the first (target) group which leavs the second lacking.
I don't know if that's a complaint or just an observation but it's my opinion either way. If someone would just elect me "KING OF THE WORLD" I could have this mess cleaned up in a jiffy
I was satisfied with my training but I am also a self motivated person who doesn't have a problem filling the gaps. I recognise that not everybody thinks like me (thank goodness).
I think the real problem is that some agencies are not entirely "honest" about what they are delivering. The primary market for one agency (the one I am familiar with) seems to be the resort/vacation diver (where most sites are known, the dive plan is developed and DM/guides are available). If that is the market then the course called OW is sufficient IMO.
There are other divers however, who dive in more challenging circumstances. They need/should be able to plan and execute a dive by themselves (sans DM/Guide) but they also take the same OW course as the vacation diver. In this case I think the course could be seen as lacking.
The agency I know of counters this deficit by offering the AOW course as well as other specialty classes but I think it is a misnomer to call their initial course OW if it doesn't fully prepare the diver for OW.
I don't think this is a big deal though and it could be remedied easily by simply renaming/restructuring the courses. Todays OW course could be called "Resort diver" (or something like it) and a seperate course OW+AOW could be called "Independant diver" (or something like it). The designations would be more honest regarding the skills of its graduates and a simular sales structure would apply. The "resort diver" could upgrade to "independant diver" by simply taking the missing modules. I don't think many would be offended by these designations as vacation divers seldom want to dive in the harsher home conditions and probably don't want to be independant divers anyways. As you say some people just want to splash around and look at the fishes.
It may seem to be a semantics game but to say that one course can produce an OW diver for the vacation model as well as the independant model doesn't work. The agencies are trying to paint with too broad a brush. To which dive group does the agency set its standards? It seems the first (target) group which leavs the second lacking.
I don't know if that's a complaint or just an observation but it's my opinion either way. If someone would just elect me "KING OF THE WORLD" I could have this mess cleaned up in a jiffy
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As presented, the numbers are meaningless. There is no process in place to capture meaningful data that would shed light on the overall proficiency or safety of divers.
How many dives a year?
Who knows? The number of divers doesn't reflect anything about their safety if they aren't diving. I do find that many divers who dive a LOT tend to feel their initial instruction was weak at best and many sought instruction outside the major agencies.
Led dives or planned and executed by the diver?
It's one thing to jump in and follow a DM, something else to be able to plan and execute independently. How many ill prepared divers have had a DM intervene on their behalf? There was a time when instruction produced divers who were independent. Survival is a very low bar to set for qualifying a dive as safe.
Ask a working DM about current diver quality or talk to some of the older charter Captains about the difference in diver proficiency.
Local cold murky waters or tropical?
A short resort course and you're now a diver. Problem is, you live in Washington State. No problem, you can be a vacation diver.
Cold water diving introduces additional issues which don't exist when tropical diving. With the large percentage of vacation divers, more divers are diving in safer conditions than was once the norm.
There are more divers diving with professionals who often are required to save their ass.
How many divers get certified on vacation and end up logging 10 dives for their entire life, like my sister? Four dives as a certified diver and now she qualifies as shining example of how safe diving is. Yeah, they're safe..... they don't dive!
There are no numbers.
How many dives a year?
Who knows? The number of divers doesn't reflect anything about their safety if they aren't diving. I do find that many divers who dive a LOT tend to feel their initial instruction was weak at best and many sought instruction outside the major agencies.
Led dives or planned and executed by the diver?
It's one thing to jump in and follow a DM, something else to be able to plan and execute independently. How many ill prepared divers have had a DM intervene on their behalf? There was a time when instruction produced divers who were independent. Survival is a very low bar to set for qualifying a dive as safe.
Ask a working DM about current diver quality or talk to some of the older charter Captains about the difference in diver proficiency.
Local cold murky waters or tropical?
A short resort course and you're now a diver. Problem is, you live in Washington State. No problem, you can be a vacation diver.
Cold water diving introduces additional issues which don't exist when tropical diving. With the large percentage of vacation divers, more divers are diving in safer conditions than was once the norm.
There are more divers diving with professionals who often are required to save their ass.
How many divers get certified on vacation and end up logging 10 dives for their entire life, like my sister? Four dives as a certified diver and now she qualifies as shining example of how safe diving is. Yeah, they're safe..... they don't dive!
There are no numbers.
Agreed there are no numbers, but here in a fairly warm almost vacation diver destination we have to save a pretty high number of quarry and lake trained divers, divers who did their OW training in cold dark conditions.
There are also plenty of stories of cold dark coastal divers who went way too deep in tropical waters because they didn't pay much attention to their gauges due to the incredible light at depth. They were used to judging approximate depth by darkness instead of always using gauges.
While we may not have the tidal changes of many coastal dive regions, the tropics still have occassional current conditions that sweep new divers into rescue situations, even those with successful cold ocean cert and recreational dives under their belt.
Most standards state something to the effect of "when diving in conditions different than those you have training and experience in, at least get a local introduction from an experienced buddy or instructor." I tell my certified divers they are really only trained for dive sites and conditions similar to what they experienced in class; don't the rest of you?
There are also plenty of stories of cold dark coastal divers who went way too deep in tropical waters because they didn't pay much attention to their gauges due to the incredible light at depth. They were used to judging approximate depth by darkness instead of always using gauges.
While we may not have the tidal changes of many coastal dive regions, the tropics still have occassional current conditions that sweep new divers into rescue situations, even those with successful cold ocean cert and recreational dives under their belt.
Most standards state something to the effect of "when diving in conditions different than those you have training and experience in, at least get a local introduction from an experienced buddy or instructor." I tell my certified divers they are really only trained for dive sites and conditions similar to what they experienced in class; don't the rest of you?
VooDooGasMan
Contributor
I met a young gal, just finished her, 1 day of open water, I put tires on commuter bike and walked over to the traing site, waiting for my ferry in mukilteo. we have cold water, and nobody told her about having hot water, for after the dive. So knowing the instructors have to teach skills, in order and a certain day, I would say she got a fair level of diver training, that is just 0 one example. Certification is an intraductory to SCUBA. Certified diver needs to dive, and learn from divers or instructors, through classes.
Some instructors give a b+ LEVEL OF DIVER TRAINING, while others give a B-. So papa I agree averages a B, Yet I have read and that some Instructors could'nt give a rats a$$, yes cause of the low cash thats involved, and others give well beyond, cause of there passion for diving. So therefore it puts it at a B.
DIVINGS DANGEROUS, yet we have a low death, and accident rate. If you want to know currently, for as many pages you want to read. Google, DIVER DEATHS, OR DIVING DEATHS.
I HAVE TO TEACH ONE THING OR ANOTHER TO ANYONE WHO CARES TO LEARN, WHEN DIVNG WITH STRANGERS. Although I did learn a few things from Dr Bill when I dove with him. And I know more than any one in this galaxy about diving. Ya know his character reminds me of Mr Bill on SNL, YA KNOW BACK WHEN CLASS INCLUDED ALL CLASSES.
Happy Diving
Some instructors give a b+ LEVEL OF DIVER TRAINING, while others give a B-. So papa I agree averages a B, Yet I have read and that some Instructors could'nt give a rats a$$, yes cause of the low cash thats involved, and others give well beyond, cause of there passion for diving. So therefore it puts it at a B.
DIVINGS DANGEROUS, yet we have a low death, and accident rate. If you want to know currently, for as many pages you want to read. Google, DIVER DEATHS, OR DIVING DEATHS.
I HAVE TO TEACH ONE THING OR ANOTHER TO ANYONE WHO CARES TO LEARN, WHEN DIVNG WITH STRANGERS. Although I did learn a few things from Dr Bill when I dove with him. And I know more than any one in this galaxy about diving. Ya know his character reminds me of Mr Bill on SNL, YA KNOW BACK WHEN CLASS INCLUDED ALL CLASSES.
Happy Diving
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