Inconsistent message to new divers

[TravisS.]

It is human nature to become arrogant once you have more knowledge than the dumbest dummy in the class. Pride seeks to promote ones self, it does not seek to build up others. In short, we all need to get over ourselves every day and remember that "knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth."

The best teacher/mentor is the one that is humble about their knowledge and does not view themselves as the final authority on the issue. The best student is one that is humble about what they don't know and respectful about what their teacher does know.

 

[SkimFisher]

I would argue with a basic premise of your post .... it would be one thing if the DMs these new divers were relying on did in fact have the "thousands of dives" you were attributing to them... but they don't. I hope no one takes offense at this - but the DM designation means nothing to me. I don't know how many dives one has to have to with the different agencies to start a DM program, but I'm pretty sure it's less than hundred for most of them. Some of the worst divers I've seen are DMs. Some of the best are. Either way, it's a crap shoot; hence, that designation is meaningless to me. So saying newbies should put their trust in DMs just doesn't cut it for me, end of story. YMMV.

Well said. There are instructors out there with less dives than I have. There are DM's out there who went and did the same dive 50 times so they could qualify as a candidate. Some people just want the title, like it somehow validates their existence, or who they are as a person. You have to be very careful with who you choose to trust.

 

[Dirty-Dog]

I'm one of those who advocates personal responsiblity. If the guide has (as is likely) dove the site more than you, then it's reasonable to get advice and suggestions from them. It is not reasonable to follow that advice if it violates your training, or even just feels wrong. It's not reasonable to assume that 'because the DM said it, it will be fine".

The DM is there to tell you what features to expect on the dive. To tell/show you where the cool things to see are. To give you pointers about local conditions. To help you sort out your bouyancy and trim, if that's a problem. To render assitance (as any other buddy) if there is a problem.

The DM is not there to manage your gas. Nor to determine if a given activity is safe.

It's your responsibility to ensure that you are able to complete the dive safely. If that means you don't go as deep, or stay down as long, or penetrate that inviting wreck/cavern/long swimthrough, then fine. YOU make that call, based on your training and experience.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I have a little test I do with my OW students on checkouts. There is a shallow quarry that has a 28ft cabin cruiser sunk in it. It is gutted and the windows knocked out. I will have them drop into the open stern while I drop down next to the entry to the cabin. I shine my light in and look around then motion them one by one to take a look. They move up and so far all of them are quite tentative. They look in and then I will motion them to go on in an get a better look. None has ever done it. I have gotten the shake of the head no, the hand signal no way, and even the "no" signified by an upraised middle finger. All of them passed the test. This is because I drill it into them from day one to trust no one, including me, who asks them to do anything they are not trained for, comfortable with, or scared of. To never accept a dive plan blindly that they have had no input in, or to make sure if they do agree to go along with a plan to have their own back up so they can end the dive at any time. The DM who has done that dive hundreds of times with hundreds of people has likely not done it with them. Does not know them, their abilities, skill level, or how they will react if the stuff hits the fan. He has no business determining conclusively that they are ready for anything new that is more than a tad outside their comfort zone. And DM led dives have killed people when they trusted the DM/guide to plan the dive and determine who was ready for it.

 

[TMHeimer]

I like your test Jim. Dirty-Dog--yeah, what you said. It's mostly just logic.

 

[boulderjohn]

On the first day of cave instruction, I was told that a trap would be sprung on me at some point during the classes, and that trap was vaguely described.

During the classes, the procedure was for me to lead the dives into the cave, and then turn the dive when I reached my target gas pressure. Once we turned, because I was the lead diver going in, I was the last diver going out. On about the 4th or 5th day of training, I was following my instructor (2 instructors, really) on the way out, my mind filled with thoughts about the class, wondering what kind of skill obstacle he would throw at me during the exit. Suddenly the diver's ahead of me stopped and turned, and my primary instructor pointed back the way we had come, indicating I was to turn and go that way. I started back, mystified, and then came to a very short break in the line, a gap in the line that guides us out. They had intentionally taken a wrong turn on the way out, a "blind jump" in which they led me into a side tunnel that was not part of the plan and for which we did not tie a line filling that gap. I hadn't seen it, and I had swum right past it. He had sprung the trap he had warned me about, and I had missed it completely. As he put it, because I was the at the rear and the last hope to catch the mistake, I had "killed the team."

When you are following someone, even someone you do not completely trust (and never trust your cave instructor!), it is easy to let your mind wander and just follow along. I realized that I had developed the bad habit on easy open water dives of just mindlessly following the leader during the last stages of the dive, and I now saw how important it is to be hypervigilant instead. Even a skilled dive leader can screw up, and when that happens, it is up to you to catch it and do something about it.

 

[lv2dive]

As a new diver, I am perceiving what seems to be an inconsistency among SB members regarding the level of responsibility expected of newly minted OW divers.

On one hand, most SB'ers emphasize that divers are responsible for their own safety. This becomes particularly apparent in the various threads about accidents or dangerous practices among dive ops. Inevitably, some SB veteran will chime in with a comment like "they received their certification, they should have known better than to trust the DM."

On the other hand, some SB'ers (often those very same vets described above) are eager to point out that OW (and even AOW) are just the beginning. Some go so far as to say that they are nothing more than intro courses and that these certifications are meaningless insofar as their ability to determine at least a minimum level of proficiency.

As an SB member, I agree with the former, but as a new diver, I agree with the latter...

<snipped for brevity>

...There is a good chance that most of your dives immediately after getting your c-card were "trust me" dives.

And now for the flame-bait portion of my post: They SHOULD be "trust me" dives unless the new diver is far more knowledgeable than average. Veterans on SB are fond of saying or implying that new divers should heed the advice of those here who have thousands of dives and years of experience under their belt. And that is true enough. I've learned a ton just reading these boards over the past few months. But these same vets castigate new divers who put their trust in their DM, someone who probably has a similar level of experience as the SB vets and are practicing pro's.

<more snipped>

Nothing wrong with disagreeing, Katepnatl, but allow me to disagree with the basic premise of your disagreement . Any DM will be vastly more experienced than most OW students or those recently certified. Even if the DM has only 50-100 dives rather than a thousand, it still seems like a lot to a noobie. I know this because during my OW cert, another customer joined us for a few dives and actually completed dive #50 while with us. We were in awe at how many dives he'd done and how experienced he was! lol. Only now that I'm beginning to approach that number do I realize how few dives that actually is. So even if the DM doesn't have 1000 dives under his belt, whatever experience he does have is enough to impress and perhaps intimidate most new divers.

Edit: Katepnatl, I just reread your post and wanted to correct an incorrect impression that you may have of my post. I never stated that newbies should put their trust in their DM. I said you can't really expect them not to. Big difference. I agree that "trust me" dives are not good, but imo, you can't fault a noobie who doesn't know any better. Now if they warned students against "trust me" dives in the OW course, it would be a totally different story.

In your response post you say that you never stated that newbies should be their trust in their DM, I'm not really sure how else to read "They SHOULD be "trust me" dives unless the new diver is far more knowledgeable than average." We can argue semantics all night but I really did get the impression from the OP that you were saying like it or not, we can't expect newbies not to trust DM's and Instructors and in fact they should bc they don't have the judgement to know any better. That doesn't necessarily seem to be how you feel based on follow up posts but it's how I read the OP.

In retrospect, I realize that the most basic premise of the OP is that we sometimes send an inconsistent message to newer divers... and while on the surface I can see how that can appear to be the case, I don't believe the points brought up have to be mutually exclusive. So I guess that is the more important conversation. New divers can be responsible for their own safety. Regardless of the quality of instruction, for liability reasons alone, the texts and tests of the major agencies reinforce this concept (of self responsibility) quite well. And, OW is a learner's permit. And if someone thinks they are "Advanced" after twenty or so dives, even if they passed AOW, that's not something that Scubaboard messaging - consistent or otherwise - is going to fix. People either have common sense or they don't.

As always, MHO and YMMV

 

[spectrum]

Simple... Don't make any dive you think you need a DM to execute safely. Watch the pool empty!

Seriously, new divers need to assume responsibility for their own welfare AND recognize that their self preservation abilities are limited THEREBY making dives within their own abilities. That may mean a steady diet of local shore dives until they have practiced, learned and absorbed enough to know a DM from a 90 five wonder and not need the DM to cover their backside. Instant gratification is a risk factor.

pete

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Excellent observation and should be a "sticky" on this forum.

The same vets that want to flame newbs for going on "trust me" dives with a DM are usually the same ones who recommend newbs find a mentor to coach them along to gain experience. Does following a mentor somehow equate to less of a "trust me" dive than following a DM?

... it depends on the mentor ... mine was constantly challenging me to think about what I was doing, or the decisions I was making, by asking me questions that started with the word "why".

What makes a "trust me" dive is allowing someone else to do your thinking for you. Experience factors less into the equation than attitude ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[fjpatrum]

Nothing wrong with disagreeing, Katepnatl, but allow me to disagree with the basic premise of your disagreement . Any DM will be vastly more experienced than most OW students or those recently certified. Even if the DM has only 50-100 dives rather than a thousand, it still seems like a lot to a noobie. I know this because during my OW cert, another customer joined us for a few dives and actually completed dive #50 while with us. We were in awe at how many dives he'd done and how experienced he was! lol. Only now that I'm beginning to approach that number do I realize how few dives that actually is. So even if the DM doesn't have 1000 dives under his belt, whatever experience he does have is enough to impress and perhaps intimidate most new divers.

Edit: Katepnatl, I just reread your post and wanted to correct an incorrect impression that you may have of my post. I never stated that newbies should put their trust in their DM. I said you can't really expect them not to. Big difference. I agree that "trust me" dives are not good, but imo, you can't fault a noobie who doesn't know any better. Now if they warned students against "trust me" dives in the OW course, it would be a totally different story.

I don't know about anyone else's OW class but mine clearly implied that while trust me dives happen, they shouldn't be the norm. Looking at the videos from these instructor's dives it was clear they were doing guided dives in warm water, not their own planned dives. As such, I took their words to heart, not their actions.

I just did my 20th dive today. I've had 2 "trust me" dives... they were both off Kona HI where I was diving as a loner on a boat and everyone else was already buddied up with people they knew. I tagged along with one father son pair for the first dive, where we didn't really discuss a dive plan but mutually agreed to "buddy" and follow the DM/guide. The second dive was the night Manta dive where everyone basically just sits in a circle on the bottom. Every other dive I've had was effectively sans DM. One had a "guide" who showed us around a particular shore dive area in Kona but I buddied up with someone and basically re-planned the dive with him and had a full pre-dive discussion of dive plans etc.

I don't expect newbs like us to be able to stand up to a DM on the surface and argue. I expect newbs like us to be able to plan their own dives and dive them, without the DM's help. If that means leaving a DM under water, no big deal. If it means buddying up and loosely "following" a DM, no big deal. I don't pay much attention to number of dives, whether from a DM or other divers. What I do pay attention to is how much they are paying attention to what's going around them. On the boat and in the water.