Individual Rights, and other Myths

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Mike you talk about "personal liberty," but talk about collective action. We as individuals make personal decisions. When Society wishes to channel our actions, it inacts regulations. You can't have it both ways; you either promote regulation or accept that each of us has the right to make personal decisions. There's little to gain by complaining that we don't all make the same choices you do, calling people wrong because they don't agree with you is what's arrogant and childish.

Wayne, I am not advocating "collective action" and I did not call anybody names.

What I am objecting to is the IDEA that all divers HAVE THE RIGHT to dive recklessly. I think that IDEA is childish, arrogant, and wrong. And I believe that people should stop and think before they utter such nonsense.
 
Here you seem to be asserting the "individual right" to dive however you wish. Correct me if I'm wrong here - I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Wikipedia has an interesting discussion about rights: Rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most dive locations I'm familiar with are regulated by government, which can and does regulate your access to, and conduct in, those areas. As far as I can tell, the public has privileges, but no "rights", in those areas.

If you read very carefully, I'm not asserting that as a right.

Technically, I'm not a libertarian and I don't believe in 'rights'.

The notion of 'rights', however, has a useful purpose in codifying laws and dealing with turning grey areas into clear lines for legislatures and judges.

My point is that if you throw out the notion of individual rights that we have and start worrying about the harm done to families of individuals who harm themselves and what the government does to them then you wind up on a slippery slope. You start not only legislating fringe activities like solo deep air scuba diving, but maybe cave and tech diving, maybe rec diving, maybe what you put into your body, and fast food, and cigarettes, and alcohol, etc... At some point this becomes deeply intrusive, and I think the better society is one that allows more freedoms and allows for more creativity (and more creative ways to kill yourself) -- but I arrive at this notion not by assuming an "individual right", but from arguing that allowing for an "individual right" actually produces a better and more successful society.
 
Who's standards Bob?
Standards that we ... as an industry that wants to self-regulate ... define for ourselves. Granted, that's broad, but consider the brouhaha 20 years ago about the recreational use of nitrox. What broke the impasse, and made the industry as a whole finally decide that it was OK? I submit it was an agreed-upon set of standards that we ... as a dive industry ... imposed upon ourselves. That doesn't mean that individuals don't exceed those standards ... but it does mean that we, as an industry, promote those standards as acceptably safe.

Same logic applies with ...

That's my point, who's to say what is reasonable and what is not? Who is to say what depth I can dive to on-air safely? Isn't this a personal choice? If not, who's choice should it be? Who is to set the "standards?" Forgive me, but I find it really difficult hearing lectures on the dangers of deep-air, when the same people often giving these lectures dive in wrecks and caves. Risk is risk, one particular brand of risk is not necessarily preferable to another.
I don't recall anyone dictating to you or anyone else what depth you can dive to on air. Frankly, I don't care. What I do care about is what we promote on a public forum where thousands ... if not tens of thousands ... of lesser trained and skilled divers are being told that this is acceptable behavior.

I dive solo. I dive in caves. I dive occasionally inside of ships. But you don't ... and never have ... seen me creating thread after thread after thread on public forums expounding on how you can take shortcuts to training and experience to do those things.

Therein lies the difference. What you do and what you promote on a public forum are very different things. I posit that it is our duty ... yours and mine in particular as dive professionals ... to promote safe diving practices and responsible behavior. Responsible behavior doesn't dictate what types of dives you do ... it defines what constitutes appropriate planning and preparation to do them.

Diving is a lot like driving a car. If everyone on the highway just did whatever the hell they felt like, operating a motor vehicle on an interstate would be a very unsafe activity. Only by establishing a framework of behavior can we be reasonably assured that someone's not going to impact our safety through the exercise of their freedom to do whatever they want. It still happens sometimes, but the risks are reasonably managed through a mutual agreement of what constitutes safe and predictable behavior. Same goes for scuba diving ... although to a much lesser degree since there are no "enforcement" agencies out there monitoring your dive.

Personally, I like having the freedom to decide for myself how I want to conduct my dive. I'm a huge promoter of keeping it that way. But, realistically, the only way that's going to happen is if we impose a bit of self-discipline on ourselves. Otherwise, the unintended consequences of a lack of discipline will cause others to impose on us their vision of what we should be doing ... and I think it's in all of our best interests to avoid that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Looking outside of the American-centric view of the world, it's obvious that ....

Ouch! But it is certainly true that we Americans are still a little touchy about our rights. Any idea where that came from ...?
 
Wayne, I am not advocating "collective action" and I did not call anybody names...

Mike,

You stated: "Frankly, I find this argument to be childish, arrogant, and wrong."

I dive deep-air and have done so for over 40 years (when I entered the Navy as a Diver). I do not believe that by saying that how one dives (wreck, cave deep-air, etc.) is an individual freedom, that this qualifies me as arrogant.

What I am objecting to is the IDEA that all divers HAVE THE RIGHT to dive recklessly. I think that IDEA is childish, arrogant, and wrong. And I believe that people should stop and think before they utter such nonsense.

No one said anything about diving recklessly. However what one person may think is wreckless, is often not the case at all. How can one individual catagorically state that I'm unsafe at 200' on air? Especially when I've safely logged more hours at that depth than they have accumulated in the water. Who is to judge?

I'm an advocate of applying common sense when diving. For the majority of divers, there is no reason to use air deeper than 100'. However, I don't believe that I'm the one to say what should or should not be done. The sport diving limit has always been 160' (on-air), but some people don't know enough to come in from out of the rain at that depth. To those people I would recommend that they don't dive that deep using air. It's common sense. If however people wish to use deep-air, or dive in a wreck or cave, I recommend that they go slowly and take appropriate training. The risk is theirs; that's not just my opinion, it's a fact. Some people just don't want to accept the what is. Perhaps they are arrogant and think that they are the one to dictate how other people dive...
 
Ah, but I AM "denying rights". I deny that you have the "right" to my money.

Somebody does a reckless dive and winds up a quadriplegic with round-the-clock care for the next 40 years, paid for by your and my taxes. I don't have the "right" to not pay it. So, as far as I'm concerned, he did not have the "right" to do it.

This relates to every area of our lives. Helmet laws, Seatbelt laws...................
We are so focused in America on individual "rights" that there is no thought to the rest of our neighbors having to pay for my life support for 25 years until I kick off. These laws are not as much to protect the individual as to protect society from paying for my rotting carcase after I do something stupid.

I understand the argument that I am not asking anybody to pay to keep me alive or take care of me, but they just aren't going to let us die. So they make laws to protect society from the consequences of stupid things stupid people do.

ymmv,
I Don't necessarily agree, just the way it is.
 
If you read very carefully, I'm not asserting that as a right.

Technically, I'm not a libertarian and I don't believe in 'rights'.

The notion of 'rights', however, has a useful purpose in codifying laws and dealing with turning grey areas into clear lines for legislatures and judges.

My point is that if you throw out the notion of individual rights that we have and start worrying about the harm done to families of individuals who harm themselves and what the government does to them then you wind up on a slippery slope. You start not only legislating fringe activities like solo deep air scuba diving, but maybe cave and tech diving, maybe rec diving, maybe what you put into your body, and fast food, and cigarettes, and alcohol, etc... At some point this becomes deeply intrusive, and I think the better society is one that allows more freedoms and allows for more creativity (and more creative ways to kill yourself) -- but I arrive at this notion not by assuming an "individual right", but from arguing that allowing for an "individual right" actually produces a better and more successful society.

I just wish people would stop saying "You have the right ..." and replace it with " you have the privilege and the responsibility ...". And I think Dennis summed up my feelings perfectly when he said: "Please don't screw it up for the rest of us."

In my view, that is the message we should be conveying to those who are proposing to "set a new personal depth record", or whatever. Telling them they have the "right" to do it is just going to hasten the day when those privileges are taken away.
 
Standards that we ... as an industry that wants to self-regulate ... define for ourselves. Granted, that's broad, but consider the brouhaha 20 years ago about the recreational use of nitrox. What broke the impasse, and made the industry as a whole finally decide that it was OK? ...

Perhaps there was a buck to be made. Like you said, it was the industry that decided. :wink:


...What I do care about is what we promote on a public forum where thousands ... if not tens of thousands ... of lesser trained and skilled divers are being told that this is acceptable behavior. ... But you don't ... and never have ... seen me creating thread after thread after thread on public forums expounding on how you can take shortcuts to training and experience to do those things. Therein lies the difference. What you do and what you promote on a public forum are very different things. I posit that it is our duty ... yours and mine in particular as dive professionals ... to promote safe diving practices and responsible behavior. Responsible behavior doesn't dictate what types of dives you do ... it defines what constitutes appropriate planning and preparation to do them.

No one is promoting unsafe diving practices, or creating threads to promote short-cuts. Is that what you are suggesting is being done here?
 
Mike,

You stated: "Frankly, I find this argument to be childish, arrogant, and wrong."

I dive deep-air and have done so for over 40 years (when I entered the Navy as a Diver). I do not believe that by saying that how one dives (wreck, cave deep-air, etc.) is an individual freedom, that this qualifies me as arrogant.



No one said anything about diving recklessly. However what one person may think is wreckless, is often not the case at all. How can one individual catagorically state that I'm unsafe at 200' on air? Especially when I've safely logged more hours at that depth than they have accumulated in the water. Who is to judge?

I'm an advocate of applying common sense when diving. For the majority of divers, there is no reason to use air deeper than 100'. However, I don't believe that I'm the one to say what should or should not be done. The sport diving limit has always been 160' (on-air), but some people don't know enough to come in from out of the rain at that depth. To those people I would recommend that they don't dive that deep using air. It's common sense. If however people wish to use deep-air, or dive in a wreck or cave, I recommend that they go slowly and take appropriate training. The risk is theirs; that's not just my opinion, it's a fact. Some people just don't want to accept the what is. Perhaps they are arrogant and think that they are the one to dictate how other people dive...

Yes, I said I thought the ARGUMENT was childish, etc. I didn't call any human being a name.

Acually, I did say something about diving recklessly, twice, in post #1. This thread is about whether a diver has the "right" to dive recklessly. I say "no".
 
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