Is a normal to have a buddy on a divemaster-led dive?

[SoccerJeni]

I have been in situations where people are happy with the "group diving" concept, but I'm not.

Six of us got ready to do a shallow shore dive off the resort in Indonesia. I asked, "What are we doing for teams?" I got looked at as though I had grown two heads. Everybody said, "Well, we'll just dive as a group." I said, "I'm not comfortable with that, I would like a specific buddy."

Good thing. Within two minutes, my buddy had buried her head in her camera, and the rest of the group was nowhere to be seen.

I always have a buddy. We may remain in close proximity to the guide (particularly in places where there are cryptic critters that the guide will see but I may not), but there is one (or are two) people who are MY team. I'm their spare gas, and they're carrying mine.

I agree completely! I am uncomfortable not having a buddy as well. If you don't have a buddy, does everyone go over hand signals and what they are going to do in certain situations or the when they will end the dive?

I have been in 2 situations where it was group diving and I didn't like it. One with was Bonne Terre, and another was with a group of people that were all friends, but I was new to them all. I just like the idea of having that one person I turn to, who's looking out for me and I'm looking out for them. I was especially nervous in Bonne Terre because it was a group of 15, so if I had trouble and needed to turn to the closest person (who didn't really speak English possibly) could I trust them to help me? I didn't feel comfortable with that.

All of my other dives have been with a specific buddy, even when I was by myself, I was assigned a buddy.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Who assigns the buddy and what if you don't like them or are not comfortable with them? Had this happen my first ocean dive on the Spiegel Grove. Instabuddy that op suggested. Clearly state that I want to see the well deck and my max is 120 for that dive. No argument. As we are ready to step off the boat this guy, who claimed to be a PADI DM, informs me he does not go below 80ft. I have two choices now, ignore my plan that he agreed to, or make a last minute change to a carefully planned deep dive that I needed as a prerequisite for an advanced course I was going to take and a dive I had paid for. As soon as we hit the water I knew what I was going to do. Seeing him doggie paddle to the down line I chose to not alter my plan. He did indeed stay at 80 ft with other divers while I got to see the well deck at 118ft. Would I make the same choice now? No. I would not allow an op to assign me a buddy. I'll look at who is on the boat and choose someone I think would be a good buddy based on their gear, attitude, experience that I would ask about, and their demeanor. Then we would make a plan and dive it. Or it would work like the dives I really like where I see another solo diver and we agree to a same ocean buddy plan once we hit the water. That way we do what we want. And if the DM is not in the water to be a pain in the butt nanny - that's even better. Allowing an op to assign you a buddy is perhaps the worst kind of "trust me" dive. Usually people who are assigned a buddy think the op/DM/whatever knows what it is doing. How can they if they don't know you? Is the OW diver they assign to you new or do they have an original LA County OW card, 2000 dives, and never saw the need to buy an AOW card? I pick my buddy and interview the crap out of them on the way out and expect them to question me just as thoroughly.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

I would not allow an op to assign me a buddy. I'll look at who is on the boat and choose someone I think would be a good buddy based on their gear, attitude, experience that I would ask about, and their demeanor.

I have never seen it work like this on any dive boats I have been on. If someone is a single diver, usually that person informs the dive op beforehand (at time of reservation?) that he needs a dive buddy. At the time of boarding the boat, the single diver is best served to remind the DM that he needs a dive buddy. Typically, the DM will know if there are any other single divers aboard. If there's one other single diver, then the two singles get paired up. I suppose that, if it becomes clear the two divers aren't a good match for whatever reason, the DM could offer other options...but at that point usually the single divers are committed to do the dive. Not all dive ops will allow solo diving...particularly with divers who aren't past customers known to have the training/experience/skill to solo dive safely.

On several occasions on boat dives, my buddy and I have politely declined requests for single divers to join our buddy team. We felt a little bad about saying "No," but we didn't want to risk the possibility of getting stuck with a diver who didn't know what he/she was doing.

Something else to consider...
I wonder whether the agreement to be same-ocean dive buddies might turn into a "sticky" situation should one diver get injured or die.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Not sure. That's why I only do it with people I think will be ok. I've also yet to have a problem just pointing to x and saying they are my buddy. Most of the DM's I;ve run across don't even bother to check. Which is why I don;t trust em in the first place.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

It is normal to have a buddy on every dive. It is a really really good idea to have a buddy on every dive. It allows you not to be tied at the hip to the group, depending on the rules established for the dive. I am lucky enough to be the divemaster on most dives, with my buddy as a group of 2. However, often if you are experienced and show good skills on an initial dive, the dive leader will be fine with you doing variations on the profile, lagging behind or elsewhere but in sight of the group - with a buddy. Safe diving is buddy diving. It's also fun to have someone to share the experience with. Otherwise, fantastic sightings and obervations become questioned by some. Dive with a buddy. It's a good thing on every dive.
DivemasterDennis

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Is it any wonder why we see fatality reports in the A&I forum every week? (something like 8 diver fatalities this week btw)

It boils down to a complete lack of divers taking any personal responsibility. If a dive 'pro' is present, the divers are content to 'abdicate' all responsibility for their safety to that 'pro'. Thus begins a slippery slide towards abandonment of all the safe diving procedures and practices they are taught in their certification training.

Trusting a DM to keep you safe when they are leading a herd is far more dangerous than diving alone. People get complacent and think the DM is going to keep them safe. Personally I would not trust a guide for anything other than to tell me what heading I need to tale to see things.

So let me get this straight; you guys do have data and links backing up these statements, don't you?

From where I bob, extending ~2,000 miles in every direction, ~99% of all charter boat diving is led by guides, and ~99% of all those guides are instructors.

The most recent charter boat diving death I know of was after the guide exited the water, when the diver was diving alone. Would that diver have had a better chance of survival if the instructor/guide had still been in the water?

Just this last Sunday, while the Sheraton Black Rock security guy was bandaging my Black Rock sliced big toe, as I drank Bikini Blond at the Cliff Dive Bar, the security guy said, "better this than giving CPR on the beach to old, really big scuba divers, like my co-workers had to do on Friday."



The really big tourist scuba diver, who was diving unguided with his equally big tourist buddy, was revived, but would he have had to be revived if it was a guided dive?

If you look at all the recreational scuba diving in Hawaii, the statistics seem to indicate guided diving is safer than non guided diving, at the very least from a fatality standpoint and probably from an overall standpoint as well. :mooner:

The only data I have to back that statement up is the lack of guided diving fatality data.

edit: FWIW, I just read nearly every post of the currently active threads in A&I, concerning more than 10 recent diving deaths, and only one of those dead divers could have possibly been considered to be on a guided dive.

 

[DevonDiver]

So let me get this straight; you guys do have data and links backing up these statements, don't you?

More relevantly, do you have any data and links to disprove them?

Other than pre-existing medical conditions, what problems are you imagining would lead to fatality that couldn't otherwise be prevented by effective use of buddy procedures?

 

[beasleym]

Let me dive (no pun intended) a little deeper into practical options since the reality is a lot of dive operations will teach the buddy system but when it comes to diving they will likely at best mention buddies but not do anything about it. In fact I had a one situation where we assigned buddies but when we I tried to do a pre-dive with my new buddy and mentioned my inflator was also the octo one of the divemasters quipped that I shouldn't scare the newbie with this information. Newbie was glad to hear this and I was glad to let him go his own way. Afterwards I gave the operator an earful, including the fact I thought they were more interested in newbie coming back with them and that they apparently would prefer him to panic if there was a problem, and didn't use them again. Nowdays I'm a lot more blunt and would be loud and vocal about the situation and report it here on the board. Hopefully you will do the same. Another time I was diving with an instructor one on one, but he wasn't a great buddy and often wandered ahead of me. I had an equipment problem and had to surface and he couldn't be reached to signal him. He was upset to find me on the surface and much more upset when I finished with my thoughts on buddy skills. Bottom line is that a lot of dives and running a cattle drive where speed is more important than anything else can lead to sloppy practices.

My wife doesn't dive so I'm often figuring out how to handle the situation. Here's my approach:
1) Look for someone yourself before the dive starts. Chatting with the group you can pretty often find someone with experience that works out pretty well. On this trip one of my buddies was an instructor visiting here. When he found about my experience he was happy to team up.
2) Look for someone ahead of time. I've had great luck finding buddies ahead of time by posting that I wanted a buddy here for a specific trip. This has really worked out well. On this trip I met up shepakins who just recently certified but his training was excellent and he's an excellent buddy. A good example that good training is lot more important than a bunch of dives.
3) Worst case be ready to solo in a group. Stay close to the divemaster but not so close since a lot of newbies are waiting to see all the neat stuff they're ready to point out. People crashing into to me or putting a fin in my face are things I've encountered. More importantly, practice emergency situations and have equipment to be on your own. If I'm on my own I carry a knife, strobe, sausage, whistle, and cutters. If I'm on a deep dive I also carry a pony bottle. And I practice regularly all the drills so that I'm ready to handle emergencies. Know how to handle a free flowing regulator or o-ring blowout. If you carry a pony practice using it - I just did that from 102 feet this past week since it had been a long time. (Obviously you need to let your buddy or operator know what you're doing.) Also know how to surface on one breath - it can be tricky since most of the change is at shallower depths and you also have to know how to flare out. (Don't beat me up on potentially surfacing to fast - remember you practiced this in your OW course.) Also, a lot of dive operations have he-men that want to promote using as little weight as possible and using minimal wetsuit protection. Better to be slightly overweighted than vice versa and once stung by a jellyfish or you get cold and suck air you will want better protection.

Would love to hear if anybody else has suggestions along these lines.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

More relevantly, do you have any data and links to disprove them?

Other than pre-existing medical conditions, what problems are you imagining would lead to fatality that couldn't otherwise be prevented by effective use of buddy procedures?

I'll just point out that two of those eight fatalities you mentioned happened in my area. In both cases the divers were in the water with a buddy, there was no DM present (we don't do guided dives in Puget Sound), and neither buddy was able to assist the affected divers. Both fatalities were effectively due to poor planning ... based on the fact that they both occurred on a large ebb (within two hours of each other at completely different locations) during a time of nearly maximum current. In both cases they were middle aged men who were quite likely not in adequate physical condition to deal with the conditions they encountered, and both died of heart attacks.

About the only thing a DM could've done differently in this case would've been to tell those fellows that they should either be diving at a different time or in a different place ... where current wouldn't have put them in cardiac arrest. On the other hand, we're supposed to be training people how to plan dives so they'd know these things without professional help ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[tomfcrist]

From where I bob, extending ~2,000 miles in every direction, ~99% of all charter boat diving is led by guides, and ~99% of all those guides are instructors.

HMMMM......Now I'm confused. Are you saying that if i dive in HI, Wake isl. , Marshall isl., etc. that i will be on a guided dive 99% of the time???? that is interesting because thats not my experiance in any of those locations on charter boats.....and it surely isnt my experiance when shore diving those locations, which is honestly 99% of the diving that i have experianced in HI.

Dont get me wrong, i understand where you are coming from, and i understand that most DM's on the Charters out there are actually instructors(because they need to be to make a living). I just think your stats are a little bit exagerated.