Live Aboard Capsizes

[beaverdivers]

Thankfully no one, guest nor crew, was injured during this incident or was in any danger of injury. We commend our crew for their swift handling of the situation and remain thankful that through a combination of internal safety procedures and thorough staff training, including regular drills, we have been able to avert a potentially more serious crisis. We would also like to thank Palau Aggressor for their assistance during the incident and evacuating our guests to Koror.

Glad to hear everyone is OK. Good to see fellow vessels providing assistance in time of need. Good Karma!

The WWDS provided much needed assistance in Typhoon Yolanda. FWIW, we had an amazing two weeks in Tubataha on the PP Siren. The crew was exceptional.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I'm curious to know what the construction materials are/were for the boats that sank.
Being in the marine business, I have seen many large vessels that had structural inadequacies that were covered up of repaired/patched in a temporary or slip shot manner. I've also uncovered a lot of stuff that surveyors have missed. Almost all the problems I've seen were on glass covered plywood construction boat that can reach well into the 80 foot range.
The main types of construction are
Steel
Fiberglass and composite
Fiberglass and some internal wood structure
Plywood with fiberglass skin (glass ply) Many of the liveaboards in Socal are built this way (Peace and sister ships)
Plywood - no fiberglass
All wood - wood frames, wood planks, fastened with silicon bronze fasteners (classic yachts)

All of these construction materials will have problems over time. Steel is considered the safest for collisions or hitting stuff in the ocean and grounding on reefs. However corrosion is always an issue and I've seen a lot of really funky cover up repairs that render the boat condemned in a short time frame after said repairs.
Pure composite has a good track record so far but fiberglass isn't a durable as steel and can suffer hull damage and water intrusions easier that steel.
Fiberglass also can suffer from water osmosis and the hulls can blister out if not properly protected.
Glassed over plywood from what I've seen can suffer the worst hidden damage and hull weakening just because the wood structure rots and there are sometime no outward tell tale signs to give any indication that there is an underlying problem.

Most of the very rugged boats for instance that they use for commercial fishing will be steel. These boats can handle huge seas and lot of abuse, just look at Deadliest Catch and the seas they have to endure. They need to be maintained and the hull has to be inspected thoroughly every time it's dry docked for bottom paint.

Then there are a few other types of building materials like ferro cement and aluminum. Ferro was written off as unsafe and many immediate and catastrophic failures were reported during it's short lived popularity. Aluminum has a good track record but is also mainly used for smaller vessels under 50 feet. Although there are some pretty large cat boats built out of aluminum - 70 - 80 feet.

The oldest boats that I've seen still kicking are all wood boats. There are some classic sailboats out there over 100 years old that are still alive. They have been refastened many times and have had a lot of repairs, but they are still around. Wood under the waterline just sits on limbo pickled and can't rot. Fresh water is the enemy of a wood boat. So is heat and humidity. The recipe for disaster is a glassed over wood boat that lives in a hot humid climate with a large annual rainfall (200 inches) and things like cleats, toe rails, stanchions, etc have been leaking and/or not bedded correctly. Also micro cracks on decks where water can intrude and begin to telescope down into structure will kill a boat very quickly.
I've also seen steel boats where rust holes in the bottom were just covered up with an external patch and the actual plating was not cut out and replaced flush as it should be. Then to add to the bad repair they fair out the patch with bondo so looking at it from the side you see a big swollen pregnant spot. With the holes still in the base metal, where do you think more salt water is going to go? A: right behind the patch so it can rot everything and cause a problem 20 times worse.

Boats maintenance never ends, and the owners can never relax and become complacent.

With the sinking of all these boats there has to be more to the story. Properly maintained boats don't just sink.

 

[Hintermann]

You need to spend more time on Caribbean boats for "the usual suspects" fleets. Those boats are like soap operas...

Well, I have been on 3 of them, all Aggressors. I have said elsewhere that the cew of Turks & Caicos Aggessor are still the best that I came across in my 19 liveaboard cruises (well, I'd tie them with the crew of the Rocio del Mar for the top spot). Those of Belize Aggressor and Cayman Aggressor were good without being anything special but they certainly looked after us well. No complaints there.

TBH, on the Philippine Siren the crew were OK with us guests but they seemed to be constantly disgareeing among themselves. On a couple of occasions the divemaster and the captain were having a slanging match (at least it seemed that way by their expressions and manner) in filipino not all that far away from where the guests were lounging. Nobody seemed to agree on the itinerary even after the guests left the choice to the crew.

 

[dlofting]

The Mandarin Siren caught fire due to an electrical fault in a clothes dryer.

And things like electrical fires and boat leaks do not exactly speak well of any operator.

This can happen quite easily in any clothes dryer, usually because the lint ignites. I never leave our dryer running when nobody is home for this very reason.

 

[ev780]

So everyone can say what they want but turning over 4 of their 5 vessels in 4 years is a bit scary. Yeah I know bad luck, acts of God, blah blah blah. If you want call it a curse, if you want call it bad safety procedures, if you want call it "involuntary conversion," if you want call it law of averages. I don't care what you call it but someone said trust your gut and my gut says something ain't right when 80% of your assets get rolled over.

 

[descent]

It's obvious in the threads about Siren: people are worried about a non-zero probability of failure.

I think the "shame on Siren" point of view may be a little unrealistic.

Modern cruise lines like Carnival or Norwegian still somehow have vessels losing power, dragging anchors, and drifting into things.

Despite an operational budget in the billions and the very real threat of court martial leading to decades of imprisonment, US Navy ships and subs still occasionally run into mapped and immovable parts of the earth.

Accidents are inevitable. What, then, is your primary concern with Siren? Their record of intact hulls, or your continued intact hide?

What matters to me is not whether I was ever in a lifeboat or stranded on a bar, but how well-covered I was during that exigent time. A cruise line with great operational checks and balances will not allow people to just go missing or wash up on a beach somewhere without fresh water or emergency rations. A good fleet dispatcher is on a first name basis with coasties and other lifesavers.

I think of it as "time to rescue". You could also call it something like "remaining time away from proper piña coladas" if you don't like to think about "remaining time of involuntary immersion in salt water".

Ideally, a helicopter would already be hovering over a serious accident scene before the decks are fully awash. Less ideally, no one would get wet because a small fleet of dinghies/pangas/RIBs was standing by to accept displaced passengers.

If Siren is not sailing near coastlines with swift and vigorous ocean rescue capability, it's nice to see that they are balancing that with other options.

Warm regards to aircraft pilots and others who (understandably) disagree.

 

[dlofting]

So everyone can say what they want but turning over 4 of their 5 vessels in 4 years is a bit scary. Yeah I know bad luck, acts of God, blah blah blah. If you want call it a curse, if you want call it bad safety procedures, if you want call it "involuntary conversion," if you want call it law of averages. I don't care what you call it but someone said trust your gut and my gut says something ain't right when 80% of your assets get rolled over.

Just so I can get some idea of where you're coming from with this can you tell me what's the most risky activity you've engaged in over the past year ?

 

[Allison Finch]

...or customers ?

I've dived with them several times and won't hesitate to dive with them every opportunity I get!

 

[Wookie]

Aluminum has a good track record but is also mainly used for smaller vessels under 50 feet. Although there are some pretty large cat boats built out of aluminum - 70 - 80 feet.

If you didn't know, almost all passenger ferries up to 300 feet are made of aluminum. Gulf of Mexico mud boats are now being made in the 190 foot range (35 knots, 1000 tons of mud, plus deck cargo).

 

[ev780]

Just so I can get some idea of where you're coming from with this can you tell me what's the most risky activity you've engaged in over the past year ?

Driving to work every morning. Or maybe my Harley at 110 mph. Or maybe a chili cheese burrito at lunch. Stray golf ball. My job as a paramedic. Hard call.

What's your point? Yes all the Siren incidents/accidents have been without major loss of life and there appears to be an excuse for each. In my world, (see above) we look at incidents/accidents and risk avoidance on a daily (hourly) basis. When doing incident/accident analysis it is rarely just one thing that causes the “big one,” rather a cascading series of little mistakes. That is a well known tenant in the investigation of these things. I am seeing a cascade start with regards to Siren Fleet. That is all I am saying. If they have a good risk manager, then they already recognize this pattern and should be initiating plans to stop the cascade.

But for now I am a little worried when you see such a rash of “accidents!” 4 out of 5 is a bad deal even if some of them were mother nature.