Maintaining Trim while motionless

[Lorenzoid]

Andy, so when doing the drill with the horizontal line locked with loose "O" fingers, what is the feedback mechanism that lets the diver know to make an adjustment? (Yeah, I remember the "wire" game with the buzzer.) In other threads, people have suggested it is possible to detect fine changes in pressure with one's ears. I have never found that to be the case--my ears don't seem to be that sensitive. If the feedback is just the diver's locked finger feeling contact with the line, it seems to me that a diver couldn't hold his arm steady enough--except perhaps in swimming pool-still water, the arm would swing enough at the shoulder to cause the "O" fingers to touch the line frequently. Got a video of this?

 

[tbone1004]

Andy, so when doing the drill with the horizontal line locked with loose "O" fingers, what is the feedback mechanism that lets the diver know to make an adjustment? (Yeah, I remember the "wire" game with the buzzer.) In other threads, people have suggested it is possible to detect fine changes in pressure with one's ears. I have never found that to be the case--my ears don't seem to be that sensitive. If the feedback is just the diver's locked finger feeling contact with the line, it seems to me that a diver couldn't hold his arm steady enough--except perhaps in swimming pool-still water, the arm would swing enough at the shoulder to cause the "O" fingers to touch the line frequently. Got a video of this?

it's done the same way we can make 0 viz exits in a cave. You make an OK sign with your finger, and "OK the line". Feed back is given when you feel the line tough a certain part of the OK. Line hits the top near the palm of your hand and you are too low, hits the left side, you are too far right, etc.

Even in the ocean, your arm shouldn't "swing" all that much. A couple inches here or there isn't a big deal, the point is to learn to hold trim and buoyancy while using feedback from the line to guide your adjustments. You can only truly do it without touching the line if you are hovering, and if you're hovering, you shouldn't be moving your arms at all. If you're moving, then you need the line as your depth/direction feedback and will inevitably contact it, which is perfectly fine so long as you are good enough to not pull on the line

 

[Lorenzoid]

Thanks, tbone, but I still don't understand how practicing with touch feedback can teach one to maintain precise depth without EITHER touch OR visual feedback, as in the question I was originally responding to. The human body needs some kind of feedback, doesn't it? A person can't even stand up on land without the sense of balance that enables him to make micro-corrections with his muscles.

If the goal is "to hold trim and buoyancy while using [visual and/or loose-Okay-sign fingers] feedback from the line to guide your adjustments," as you say, THAT makes perfect sense to me. But the OP's lament about "still need a visual reference or focus on my computer" sounded to me like he was asking too much of himself--or just about anybody.

 

[boulderjohn]

Think about it: you must bend your neck to exactly 90 degrees to have the lens vertical while keeping your torso perfectly horizontal. Body: parallel to the bottom, face: perpendicular to the bottom, the bit in between: ouch.

I don't have any problem. My first two cervical vertebrae are fused, and I have spinal stenosis throughout the rest of the cervical vertebrae.

 

[dmaziuk]

@dmaziuk if you lie face down on the floor can you look up to see the TV etc? I find that my horizontal trim tends to have my back quite arched.

Can: yes, do: no. That just shifts the strain to my back. I swim in a horizontal trim looking about 45 degrees down. I'll arch my back to look up, unless I feel like turning belly-up instead, but otherwise I mostly keep it straight.

 

[DevonDiver]

Andy, so when doing the drill with the horizontal line locked with loose "O" fingers, what is the feedback mechanism that lets the diver know to make an adjustment? Got a video of this?

Sadly, I don't have a video to post (I typically won't publicly post training videos of my students). I'll get some footage of me doing these drills next time I'm able....

The feedback is when your fingers make contact with the line. You instantly adjust. Adjust the arm first, follow with the body. It teaches the ability to micro-adjust and how to breathe consistently for accurate buoyancy. It also teaches that 'stillness' people strive for.

When we do mask remove/replace during this drill it really stresses that breathing consistency. Take a deep inhalation to clear the mask and you'll float up. With the black mask on you're much more attuned to your breathing and buoyancy.. it works well.

I do this in shallow open water, sometimes a very slight surge and miniscule current, but generally calm conditions....students of all levels OW to trimix...

 

[tbone1004]

Thanks, tbone, but I still don't understand how practicing with touch feedback can teach one to maintain precise depth without EITHER touch OR visual feedback, as in the question I was originally responding to. The human body needs some kind of feedback, doesn't it? A person can't even stand up on land without the sense of balance that enables him to make micro-corrections with his muscles.

If the goal is "to hold trim and buoyancy while using [visual and/or loose-Okay-sign fingers] feedback from the line to guide your adjustments," as you say, THAT makes perfect sense to me. But the OP's lament about "still need a visual reference or focus on my computer" sounded to me like he was asking too much of himself--or just about anybody.

what Andy posted should clarify, but the ability to maintain trim is in your sense of balance and body positioning. You shouldn't need any reference to maintain good body position.
The ability to maintain buoyancy without visual input is based on "feel". You feel by your breathing and your ears. Your ears being more or less useless at depth since the pressure differential is very small. It's very easy to do in less than 10ft of water, very difficult at 100ft. You can also use your breath to feel if your breathing is having to change to get rid of the sense of going up and down. Very difficult, I can do it if I really focus, but I have to really really focus without some sort of visual reference. I don't particularly enjoy doing it by my computer either. If I have to hold depth in OW for a deco stop or something I will always shoot a DSMB with knotted line on it and use that to hang.

The ability to maintain depth with no reference to anything is in my opinion a bit of a party trick with little real world benefits. In any real environment that you have to maintain depth without visual reference to the bottom or some object, you'll either have some sort of line *anchor, dsmb, etc*, your computer, your buddies computer if yours fails and you don't have a marked line, or **** has really hit the fan and you have encountered more failures than you can realistically plan for.

That said, the inability to maintain depth within 1ft of target with a visual reference is a sign of poor buoyancy control

 

[boulderjohn]

what Andy posted should clarify, but the ability to maintain trim is in your sense of balance and body positioning. You shouldn't need any reference to maintain good body position.
The ability to maintain buoyancy without visual input is based on "feel". You feel by your breathing and your ears. Your ears being more or less useless at depth since the pressure differential is very small. It's very easy to do in less than 10ft of water, very difficult at 100ft. You can also use your breath to feel if your breathing is having to change to get rid of the sense of going up and down. Very difficult, I can do it if I really focus, but I have to really really focus without some sort of visual reference. I don't particularly enjoy doing it by my computer either. If I have to hold depth in OW for a deco stop or something I will always shoot a DSMB with knotted line on it and use that to hang.

The ability to maintain depth with no reference to anything is in my opinion a bit of a party trick with little real world benefits. In any real environment that you have to maintain depth without visual reference to the bottom or some object, you'll either have some sort of line *anchor, dsmb, etc*, your computer, your buddies computer if yours fails and you don't have a marked line, or **** has really hit the fan and you have encountered more failures than you can realistically plan for.

That said, the inability to maintain depth within 1ft of target with a visual reference is a sign of poor buoyancy control

I can't tell a thing by changes in my ears, especially while wearing a hood.

 

[tbone1004]

I can't tell a thing by changes in my ears, especially while wearing a hood.

with a hood it is exceptionally difficult, but in the first 15ft of water it's possible

 

[Lorenzoid]

That said, the inability to maintain depth within 1ft of target with a visual reference is a sign of poor buoyancy control

For a ninja tech diver like you, maybe. For a rec diver to be considered good, GUE's standard of 5 ft. sounds pretty reasonable, and for a tech diver 3 ft.