Master Diver - Liability

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I hate these threads because there is so much incorrect information, half correct information and correct information -- sometimes all in the same sentence, let alone post. I also do get a little ticked off when people who only slept in a Holiday Inn Express the night before believe they have the knowledge to respond to technical questions. I KNOW I don't have the knowledge to respond to a medical question (or many photography questions for that matter) and so I don't -- but why does everyone seem to think they are qualified to answer legal issues? I don't get it -- and as a result, there is a lot more confusion than there should be.

a. Anyone can be sued for anything at any time -- well, yes BUT, at least here in the USofA, it can be costly for the plaintiff if the lawsuit doesn't have a well founded basis and, as a result, it is highly unlikely that a REAL person will be sued just because she "was there."

b. A "Master Diver" (aka, a recreational diver) has some sort of cloak of immunity because she is not a "professional." No -- the rules are the same for all people regardless of their status.

c. A "Dive Master" (aka, a "professional diver") has some sort of absolute liability because she is a "professional." No -- the rules are the same for all people regardless of their status.

d. Because there is a Good Samaritan Law in the jurisdiction means you are immune from liability. No, not necessarily -- it depends on what the Good Samaritan Law covers and it appears the norm is that they would NOT be applicable to most diving incidents. But the important issue is that they are jurisdiciton dependant.

OK -- What are "the rules" of liability, at least in most of the US of A (and other "Common Law" jurisdictions)?

A person is (may be) liable for damages if:

a. A person has a duty of care toward another; and

b. That person negligently failed to maintain that duty of care; and

c. That as a result of that failure, the person to whom the duty of care was owed suffered an injury.

Line "a" tends to be a "legal" question, while "b" and "c" tend to be "factual" questions.

It is often easier to prove that a "professional diver" has a duty of care (afterall, that is why DMs are hired, for example) than it is to prove a "recreational diver" has a duty of care -- which is why too many people think being a recreational diver gives one immunity. Whether any diver has a duty of care towards another depends on the circumstances. My belief is that ALL "buddies" (whether professional or not) owe a duty of care to each other for example.

IF the duty of care is established, then the issue of what is the scope of that duty of care must be established -- and that may well rely on the actual experience of the divers involved regardless of their "professional or recreational" status. A very experienced "recreational" diver may, in fact, have a higher duty of care than a brand new "professional." But the exact scope of that duty is probably unknown until the jury comes in! That is also why the liability waivers tend to be expansive.

Once the duty of care issue has been established, there must be proved that the injury, assuming there was one, resulted from that failure to provide the proper duty of care. This may be the hardest part and was certainly one of the big issues in, for example, Drifting Dan's case. In that case, for example, it was easy to prove there WAS a duty of care and that the Boat failed to execute it -- but it was highly questionable whether the injury (cancer) was a result of that violation! (You sometimes just have to marvel at juries.)

In this particular issue, Google (or Bing) really IS your friend. Before one writes, one might want to confirm one's "knowledge" -- especially in technical fields such as this one.

I have to add one minor detail you left out as well. Though a person may not get involved for say they see someone complaining of chest pains but decide they do not have the ability to give CPR. If they do nothing and just leave they can be sued on the grounds of negligence. On the other hand if they call 911 and do nothing more then they would not be negligent. So long as they made reasonable attempt to either help the person or get qualified help this would eliminate in most cases (I dare not say all because the legal system always amazes us) the grounds of negligence.

Also just to clarify I stated my reply based on experience. I am not a lawyer and as my profession states when asked legal advice I dont give it but respond with "You should seek the advice of a an attorney if your seeking legal advice"
 
Here in the Middle East Gulf countries if you render aid and the victim dies then you go to jail until it is proven that you did not cause the death.

... somehow that doesn't surprise me ... :shakehead:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
When I got my DM cert, I wondered about the liability. But now that I only dive recreationally and my dive buddy is my GF (not rescue certified, 40 dives), isn't my first duty of care to my buddy? Is it ok to leave your buddy to attempt a rescue? It seems like many incidents occur in strong current or divers going too deep. Maybe i'm an evil b4stard, but if conditions are challenging, I'm not going to leave my GF to attempt a rescue or bring her along.
 
Watboy -- Note again, EVERY jurisdiction has a different set of rules so what I wrote (for example) may not have any relevance to where you dive (if in fact you are in Thailand).

IN THE COMMON LAW JURISDICTIONS, for there to be a "duty of care" there must be some relationship (and Ken, just being in the vicinity may NOT create such a relationship so it may well be absolutely OK to watch someone clutch their chest and do nothing). You have a "relationship" with your dive buddy -- you do NOT (necessarily) have a relationship with "Joe Diver In Distress." HOWEVER, IF you decide to respond to Joe Diver, then you have created a relationship and thus would have a duty of care.....

The judges in Merrie Ole England were actually pretty smart in the system they created (I think) and it really boils down to, Do No Harm!
 
I have never heard of this, but I wouldn't be surprised too much if that were true. I say this because I think if you are a doctor or something and do not speak up in an emergency situation, then you could be held liable for negligence, etc.
 
I know of two people who were named in a suit because "they were there". Nothing ever came of it for them, it sounded more like the lawyers cast out a big net to see what they could catch, and let the small fry go. Never the less they were served to begin with.

I can't live my life in fear of lawsuits. For one, it hasn't happened to me yet. Two I would never be able to leave my house.

In a situation like a dive accident I can see everyone on the boat being named, how many that would be held liable I have no idea, probably very few if any.
 
ScS wrote
I say this because I think if you are a doctor or something and do not speak up in an emergency situation, then you could be held liable for negligence
OK, please tell me WHY you think that is the law? What is it about being "a doctor or something" that would require one to "speak up in an emergency"?

I await your response.
 
ScS wrote
OK, please tell me WHY you think that is the law? What is it about being "a doctor or something" that would require one to "speak up in an emergency"?

I await your response.

Saw it on an episode of Law and Order once. The original not the ripoff bad cop shows. And you know those are all based on real cases, you did know that right?

Actually there is a widely held belief that if you have MD plates you are required to stop at all auto accidents or lose your medical license. I think I doubted that when I was 12 but I still here people say it...
 
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Saw it on an episode of Law and Order once. The original not the ripoff bad cop shows. And you know those are all based on real cases, you did know that right?

Actually there is a widely held belief that if you have MD plates you are required to stop at all auto accidents or lose your medical license. I think I doubted that when I was 12 but I still here people say it...

Correct. If a person is in a position to be of the highest authority of a situation and fails to act he can be held negligent. If your a doctor and you see someone having a heart attack and a witness can place you at the scene as just looking down at him and walking off you have failed in your medical capacity roll.

If you are a police officer off duty and witness a crime in commission you still have a duty to react. If not its not performing within the trust given to you. You can be sued and this actually happend in the town I live in now where the officer even lost his job as well.

People fail to realize when you take on certain roles you assume liability. One role often over looked is that when you fail to render aid (At least call 911) to some one in distress it can turn civil and it can turn ugly.

People always say you cant be sued for something yet america has it on the books that you can sue for anything any time anywhere..

a few situations as living proof is the well known lady who spilled coffee on her self and won money.

A second was in Oklahoma a lady bought an R.V. and was told that the cruise control would make driving the rv a lot easier. The lady puts it on and leaves the driver seat while its going down the road and attempts to make a sandwhich. No one in their right mind would leave a drivers seat while the car is going down the road yet she did and caused a major accident. She sued the dealer and won.

How many times have you heard of a burgler breaking in a home he has no buisness in and slipping on a toy in the childs bedroom causing himself to be injured? It happens all the time and the burglar wins quiet often dispite he should not have even been there to begin with.

Have you not heard of the Stores having to pay big money to people who slip and fall outside of the stores on rainy days? Do you really expect them to put wet floor signs outside of the stores when it rains? Apparently some juries did.
 

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